🇺🇸Ten-Seng Guh

Hosts: So you have an interesting background, growing up in Taiwan and then emigrating to the U.S. Can you tell us about that experience and how old you were?

Ten-Seng: I was born in Taipei. Both my parents are from Taiwan, so we're kind of one of the rare Taiwan-Taiwan couples in our church. When our parents got matched, it's usually to another nationality, but in our case, I think the first nine couples of Taiwanese members were matched to each other. So my parents were one of those nine. Neither of them are from Taipei. My dad's from a city in the south called Chiayi, and my mom's from Fengyuan. But they chose to move to Taipei for my dad's job — he was a doctor. So my brother and I were born in Taipei. Then my dad wanted to go to the U.S. to pursue a master's of public health. He got into a couple of schools — Johns Hopkins, UC Berkeley. In the end, he went with Berkeley. So in summer of '88, we moved to Berkeley, California. That's how I found myself there.

Hosts: How old were you at the time?

Ten-Seng: I was three and a half.

Hosts: Any early memories of Taiwan?

Ten-Seng: I do, actually. I remember nursery school. I was a really slow eater. I'd always be the last one in the lunchroom. I just took my time. I didn't care. Another fond memory is my cousin. He was about five years old and was trying to teach me how to play video games. It was the original Nintendo. I had no idea what I was doing, but I just remember him trying to help me. So that's what stood out — eating slowly and getting help with video games.

Hosts: Those are great early memories. Do you have any memories of the church community there? It sounds like there were just a few couples — your parents were one of the first Taiwanese couples introduced to each other by Father Moon. Was it very small at that time?

Ten-Seng: To be honest, I don't remember too much from my time in Taiwan, but just learning about the history — at that time, the church was still underground all the way till about 1991. When I was born, definitely it was still underground because Taiwan back then was not a democracy yet. Just like South Korea, actually — very similar. It was basically an authoritarian state, and Family Federation, more commonly known as the Unification Church, was illegal. You were not allowed to practice it. So they had unofficial names. They met — I don't want to say in secret, it wasn't that bad, but that was the situation back then. Despite that, the church grew and grew. But because I was just three, I don't really remember, other than photos. Maybe you guys know Steve Chang?

Hosts: Yes, I remember Steve Chang, from way back when, when we were in high school. We didn't hang out a lot or anything, but yeah.

Ten-Seng: He's the eldest Taiwanese second gen, and I'm the third. There are photos of us at church holiday gatherings and stuff, but I have no recollection of that.

Hosts: So your parents had to practice their faith, maybe not in secret, but discreetly. I'm guessing that all changed for them when they moved to the U.S. — there wasn't that strict of a bar to practice the Unificationist faith.

Ten-Seng: My earliest faith memories are in California, during those years when I was from three to eight. We were there five years. Those were maybe the formative years of my faith — even later on in my life, when things got difficult, our family always went back to those good times. I went to Unification-led schools that whole time, from preschool to elementary. It was called Sunshine School back in the day. I think now it's called Principled Academy. Maybe you guys know people that also went there. For me, those were really the happiest times of my life. That's when our family was still all together. I went to church, this nice school. I never learned any swear words. I was a very pure, innocent kid. I just enjoyed playing dodgeball, enjoyed singing. We always sang holy songs and worship songs — the Boonville songs, a lot of the songs that were written in the seventies in Oakland when members joined every morning. We sang those. So those were good times.

Ten-Seng: After my dad got his Master's of Public Health, he was looking for a residency at a hospital. He decided to go with this hospital in Yonkers because it was near East Garden, the residence of the Moon family at the time. That's where Father Moon would talk to members every morning, back in the early nineties. He wanted to be close to that. So we moved to Queens, which is close to Westchester, but it's still quite a commute. Just six months in, my dad would doze off while he was driving. And then at work, he was not always at his sharpest. This was a Catholic hospital, by the way. I think summer of '93, True Mother was touring the U.S. at that time, giving speeches, and she was coming to New York. My dad was handing out literature in the hospital. He remembers an employee giving him a dirty look as he was doing that. And then on top of that, the performance record — he unfortunately got laid off just six months into the job. These are the facts of what happened. I'm pretty convinced that his faith had a lot to do with why he got fired. But I guess, us being immigrants and not wanting to stir any trouble, we didn't really pursue legal action or anything like that. That was a point where it really hurt our family, because after that, my dad stayed in New York maybe another year, just doing odd jobs, but not really being a resident. Then he eventually went back to Taiwan to practice. But the rest of us stayed in New York — my mom, and now I had three siblings.

Hosts: Wow, that must have been so hard for you guys.

Ten-Seng: It was, especially for my younger siblings. My youngest brother was only one when my dad moved back. I was 10, so I at least had more memories of my dad than the rest of my siblings. So it was tough for them — tough for me because I had memories, and maybe that makes it more difficult versus someone who didn't have that much of a connection. But I think it definitely impacted their development.

Hosts: I'm curious because that's a big deal — to have your family's livelihood and how you're able to care for your family impacted because of, maybe not wholly religious discrimination, but that certainly played a part. Did your parents ever talk about any discrimination that they faced in Taiwan as well? At least for me, prolonged exposure to that kind of discrimination really impacts a person. It can impact your self-confidence, how you show up in the world. I'm curious to know if they ever mentioned anything like that.

Ten-Seng: My mom never did, but my dad actually shared a couple of interesting anecdotes. In Taiwan, like some other countries — South Korea, Israel — there's mandatory military service for the men. So my dad did, I think, three years. During that time, somehow the government found out that he was in this Korean fringe group. They ransacked his stuff, did a search of all his possessions, seeing if he was some kind of spy or up to some ulterior motives to thwart the government, or whatever. I don't know what they were really afraid of back then, but they searched all his stuff and came to the conclusion that they couldn't find anything bad about him. After that, they left him alone. He just shared that story with me. That was one example. That was in the early seventies, I guess.

Hosts: He must've been kind of shaken by that, I imagine.

Ten-Seng: I'm not sure. He always had a really strong faith. He passed 11 years ago, but up to the day he passed, he always wore his faith on his sleeve. Maybe that's why he kind of ran into an unfortunate circumstance in New York. I don't know if it had any long-term psychological effects, but certainly this kind of persecution can be traumatizing. For me, I just remember in '98, Madison Square Garden — I think Reverend Moon was speaking there. I just remember people picketing outside, protesters, how angry they were, the anger on their faces. I'm just a 13-year-old kid, but that still stays with me — the rancor people had, and for what reason exactly, I don't know. That kind of stuff stays with you for sure.

Hosts: Being part of a minority faith that has been actively persecuted for decades — as a kid of that, even yesterday, being in a group of Christians, I felt a little hesitancy to say that I was a Unificationist, that I was part of the Unification Church when they asked. Just pausing and thinking, why does that come up still? Why am I still afraid to proudly share and declare what faith group I'm part of? It does linger. It has this really deep effect on us as young Unificationists, to have experienced that young and be taught that your faith isn't safe.

Ten-Seng: Even here, my wife is also hesitant to tell, especially the Koreans, because I think Nancy knows.

Hosts: It's a judgy group. Don't worry. I'm half Korean, so I'm allowed to say that.

Ten-Seng: Especially in the U.S., most of the Koreans are Christian, and very outspoken Christians. So that question has already come up multiple times — oh, do you go to church? Which church? In New York, we were more open about it, because where we lived in Westchester, there were less of them, and they were less religious. So they didn't look at us any differently, most of them, after we told them. But here, there's a big Korean community, and they all go to the same churches. And they're always trying to bring new members to their church. So here, my wife's been a little more careful about it, and I don't blame her.

Hosts: You don't want to be ostracized, right? It's that fear of being ostracized, of not being part of the clique or the group, of being looked at differently. I think that's just natural human instinct, to want to belong. And when you don't belong — sometimes people make it out to be like, oh, well, it's not that bad, it's not like you're being murdered for it. Not fed to lions. Even today there is real extreme religious persecution in other parts of the world where people are being tortured and killed — the Uyghurs situation and different things like that. So sometimes people look at the discrimination that our movement faces and they're like, well, it's not that bad. But that type of chronic exposure where you're feeling in fear all the time — we underestimate the impact on our health, how much it can stress you out. I think the impact of it is really under-emphasized. It's especially painful, at least for me, when I come in contact with people of the Christian faith, because I would hope that they are able to truly embrace us. That's not to say I'm looking for them to agree with my faith or condone it. We can have our differences, but at least to not be rejected because of something that I believe — we can still be friends, we can still talk about these things. It's really tough.

Hosts: That was a lot of heavy conversation. To pivot a little, or balance it out — is there a particular memory that kind of sums up your experience growing up in the church? Maybe a lighter topic?

Ten-Seng: Like I said earlier, what really defined the church for me, this movement, was just my upbringing in the Bay Area — going to Sunshine School, being a happy kid, having a lot of friends in the school and in the church. That kept me grounded despite all the negativity later on. Like on TV, everyone knows about the 60 Minutes episode, the infamous 60 Minutes episode.

Hosts: Oh, does everyone know? Do our listeners know about the 60 Minutes episode? Okay, all right, we're going to go there.

Ten-Seng: That was in the mid-nineties. 60 Minutes did this big exposé on our church and the Moon family. They had one of the daughters on — Un Jin, Un Jin Jenkins, I think her last name is now. She was not happy. Actually, she wasn't even the main guest. It was the ex-wife of the son who was speaking out, claiming spousal abuse and negligence, things like this. Really painting the Moon family in a bad light. That's an example of something that really made me question my faith — are these people, have I been lied to this whole time? A lot of us went through questioning phases like that. I think that also really impacted my mom. A lot of things impacted my mom's faith — my dad getting laid off, this thing too. And she had resentment from leaders. So she left the church for a while. And then, not being raised in the church environment — basically in New York, I would go to church on my own in Queens, just take the subway there. Because I had as my foundation those good memories in California, I just held onto that like an anchor. No matter what was happening around me, I held that to be the truth, to be my compass.

Hosts: That 60 Minutes episode was really challenging for a lot of people in their faith, and a lot of people left because of that — understandably so. What was kind of the thought process for you in digesting that? To motivate you to go to church alone — that's a pretty big deal. Most people, I don't think, would have that kind of impulse within them to seek that out. I know you shared that it was grounded in your personal experiences of the community that you held to be true. But what else did you think through to digest those things?

Ten-Seng: Maybe I should clarify the timeline. Even those days when I went to church by myself in high school and college, I don't remember when I actually saw the episode. It might've been later on. But even that impulse to go to church — almost like, I gotta do it, just because. That was kind of the impulse. Based on my experiences, and actually based on my dad — my dad had a big impact on my faith. We had conversations, not too many because he went back to Taiwan later on, but those few conversations were always very impactful. His faith was so strong, and he was such a good person. Both my parents were good people. For one thing, they weren't racist. A lot of Asians are racist. Maybe Nancy knows what I'm talking about. Maybe I laughed a little too hard there. Even within our church, actually, it's kind of ironic. But my parents were never that way. They were very atypical Asians in that regard. My mom's almost a tiger mom, but they were just good people. In our church, we say Abel-type people — that kind of means, you know, you're going to be the kind of person that, if a homeless person asks you for some change, you're probably going to give a little something. You care about other people, not just yourself. They were that kind of people. And most people in our church are that kind of people too. So that was just my test — if our church is fundamentally good or bad. And then I just went with that.

Ten-Seng: Back to the original question — the thought process. I think I was in my early 20s when I actually saw the whole episode on YouTube all the way through. By then, I looked at it not from a humanistic lens, but more from the viewpoint of — we say God's viewpoint, but what that means, I think, is just from the lens of human history. If you believe there's a God, and there are satanic forces, the opposite of good, that would try to destroy a supposed man of God and his family, then to me it makes sense what happened. Could the outcome have been different? Could, if certain little things were different — yeah. I know True Father and True Mother were really busy all the time, giving their blood, sweat and tears, their time to the world rather than their family. If they had maybe just spent a little more time having conversations with their son and his wife, maybe this could have been avoided. But I just chalked it up as, these are the trials that they go through, and I can't judge. At the end of the day, I really haven't been in their shoes at all. I heard the kind of pressure they went through, that their life was not easy. I'm talking about the children, growing up in the public eye all the time. You have a lot of members that kind of grovel towards you, but maybe they should be teaching you, disciplining you more, because their parents weren't around. Not having that parental love — it can manifest in a lot of different ways. And then you're treated like royalty all the time. That's not a good recipe. So that's kind of how I digested it.

Hosts: I wonder if, from your own experience — your parents were in two different places, and your mom had left the faith, and you were trying to actively stay part of it — that kind of shaped you. That perspective of, I can't judge other people because maybe in my family we have our own unique challenges. Is that fair to say?

Ten-Seng: Yeah, I think that certainly helped me have that view. I really don't know how I came up with this. It's probably a combination of everything, and maybe just the kind of person I am. Maybe it's in my genes. I never really analyzed it that deeply. But I think having that empathy — because I myself went through stuff that I wouldn't really share openly with anybody. It's a complicated story. It's not something I'm happy to talk about all the time. So I think that helped. Just in our movement, all the first families of every nation that joined went through a lot. If you look at today, a lot of those earliest, oldest second gen aren't really around. I would say probably less than 5% are still kind of active in this movement in some way, or contributing money. Maybe just 5%. Those pioneering members went through a lot. Some of them, because of that, can also sympathize, but some of them may have resentment and then resent the movement even more, and the Moon family even more. It can go either way, depending on different factors.

Hosts: Was there a specific moment where you felt that you consciously decided to stay with this movement, despite everything that you were seeing and experiencing?

Ten-Seng: To me, it was never a question of leaving. That was just off the table. But I guess in the biggest moments of doubt, maybe I'd be in a day of confusion, and then I would reorient myself. There was a turning point in my faith where before that, I was just going on impulse, and after that, I had a real connection to God. There was that kind of moment.

Hosts: Can you talk about that, what that connection looked like for you?

Ten-Seng: Throughout my middle school, fourth grade and up basically, I was raised outside of the church. But I still had that longing, that hunger, that thirst for the sense of community that I felt when I was a kid. So when I was college age, that was my first time to escape my mom's house and pursue this life of faith. That's what I did. I went to Binghamton University — it's about a three-hour drive from New York City, so I didn't have to live at home. I could live in a dorm. During that time, that's when I really started connecting to other second generation, people I didn't know before. I just wanted to get connected to community. Junior year, one of my friends mentioned this CARP retreat, this leadership workshop, to me. It was during our winter break, so I decided to go. Once I was there, I was surrounded by these powerhouses at their respective campuses, and I felt like I was a newbie, just soaking it all in. For me, it was a really brand new experience — kind of like a first-gen guest going to a workshop. Everything's brand new, the jargon is new, but it's really eye-opening and deep, the kind of stuff that they're saying.

Ten-Seng: I'll never forget — on the third night, Joshua Cotter, who was the CARP president at the time, gave a testimony. It was very powerful, very personal, very vulnerable. He ended the testimony with a very repentful prayer. He was sobbing, very loud. And that moved my heart. So that day, in a reflection, we were asked to answer the following question: what drives God's heart, and how have you connected with that? For me, I never had any kind of experience of God. I could maybe look up a quote in the Divine Principle and write that down as a textbook answer, but that'd be lying to myself. It wouldn't be honest. So I held off on answering that question. That night, there were all these testimonies with Joshua Cotter at the end. After that, I decided to go back to my room to pray. And then I went back. It was just me in there. No music or anything, just me in silence. I just closed my eyes and I started praying — Heavenly Father. And at that moment, just this flood of love, but it was also like pain from God. And this really strong message, I'll never forget it to the day I die. It was just like, now you know how I feel. And this is why I need you. But I'm not going to force you. Like, okay, now you see the reality of the situation. I'm actually heartbroken, and you're all my children. I never wanted the world to be this way. All in an instant — that was the emotion just flooding. I started crying, saliva, mucus out of my nose. It all came pouring out.

Hosts: Those are the best prayers.

Ten-Seng: That was the first time I ever had that kind of prayer. And maybe the last — I don't know, maybe I had a couple of others after that. But that was truly life-changing. For people that are not religious at all, it's kind of like the scene in Frozen 2 when Elsa meets her mom. At the end, it's like, boom, whoa, my beloved mommy or daddy is there, and she's also crying. That's kind of how it was. If you could imagine something like that in movies.

Hosts: How old is your daughter? Because I know that reference comes from being a parent with daughters.

Ten-Seng: She's eight now. When Frozen 2 came out, we took her to the theater to watch it.

Hosts: Wow, daddy got a very deep takeaway. It's not just for kids. Thank you for sharing that. Even though we've talked about some pretty heavy things, and even that experience of God, that very personal experience, can be described as heavy — the more I read research on emotions and human behavior, our capacity to face difficulty is really what gives us also the same capacity to experience true joy and depth of happiness and satisfaction. It opens up the range of experience in life. It's like Brené Brown says — that's why we like to watch sad movies. We cry during the sad movies, and we walk away with this sense of empathy, of feeling connected to the human experience that we all share, but we don't always talk about it.

Ten-Seng: Absolutely. The more vulnerable you make yourself, the more you can experience. I forgot to mention — that day, because I couldn't answer that question, I was struggling. So I did pray to God very simply: God, I want to feel your heart. I want to know that you're real. That's all. I didn't have any divine moment, but it was just very sincere. I was a little frustrated. Sometimes prayer can be just like that, the way you talk to your parents. But it starts with people having that vulnerability, that acknowledgement — I don't know everything, something's missing inside me. I'm not happy actually. I have all these things, but something's still empty. Being able to acknowledge that, recognize that, and then reaching out to God or a higher power — I think that opens the door, and then miracles can happen. Not everyone's going to have a life-changing born-again experience. But like Nancy said, your range of emotions will be a lot more if you're willing to put out a lot more, versus being safe and keeping yourself behind some kind of shell of protection. Then you're only going to experience at best a little dopamine hit, and then that's it, then you need something again.

Hosts: I think it does take that openness to receive those kinds of inspirations from God. For some people it's a lightning bolt, for others it's a whisper. It's this wide range of what makes God personal to you. And you asked the question — God, show me you're real — and you got an answer. So, Ten-Seng, I'd like to ask you about — since your mom was no longer in the faith and was raising you — what made you decide to go to the marriage Blessing, and what was that process for you? Can you talk a little bit about meeting your wife and that experience?

Ten-Seng: Sure. Because of that, this idea of being matched was actually kind of foreign to me. As far as the Blessing, I was open to it. My dad was always wanting me to get blessed. I remember in college, I was just thinking, wow, getting matched is so weird.

Hosts: For our listeners — getting matched is, in the past, Reverend Moon would pair individuals, usually from different nationalities, races, and all kinds of backgrounds, together. They would meet and decide whether they wanted to be engaged and move forward to the marriage Blessing, which is our sacrament of marriage. A lot of times they were total strangers, and you had like 30 minutes to decide if you wanted to go through with it or not. It's an incredible thing to say yes.

Ten-Seng: Even after my God experience, it took me a little bit more to digest. And then later, even to digest who True Parents were. So even after I had my God moment, I didn't really have my True Parents moment yet — I got that later on. But as I was involved with CARP and went to workshops, during those years True Father was still matching second gen directly. A lot of my friends were going to these matchings, and maybe — it's not just peer pressure, but seeing more of my friends doing this, I was more open to it also. But it just wasn't in the cards for me to go to one of those. Later on, with parent matchings, a lot of people contacted my dad with possible matchings. My mom would also be open to it if it was a good enough candidate.

Hosts: Mom standards.

Ten-Seng: Very. But they would always say, he's not ready yet, he's not ready yet. That was just a polite rejection, but I think honestly they also believed that. I wasn't ready yet. So that was throughout my early-to-mid twenties. Then my dad passed when I was 27. It was very sudden — it was a stroke. For me, that was kind of traumatic as well. He was really like my anchor, and I was pretty devastated by his passing. I stopped eating and lost a lot of weight. I had one suicidal thought during that time — I wasn't suicidal, but it just crossed my mind one time. That's kind of the state I was in. That was February 2012. And in March 2012, that was like the last True Parents matching. They were calling people to go. Actually, I was kind of past the cutoff age, but I went anyways. So already, it's like a bad sign. That was when they did a thumb matching thing.

Hosts: Do tell — I don't think I've heard this story.

Ten-Seng: Oh really? Okay. So in the last few True Parents matchings, Father Moon never actually matched anybody. He just told the participants, just clasp your hands and check which thumb is on top. And if your right thumb is on top, then go find somebody with their left thumb on top, because that's complementary personalities.

Hosts: Interesting.

Ten-Seng: I think there's kind of some truth to that, actually. There was a time when I was searching for my own spouse, and that'd be the first question that came up, because I just had no luck with people that were the same thumb as me. It always just didn't work out. That was my first question to my wife when we first started communicating. But anyway, before that — someone chose me, and I really didn't want to go through with it. That Radiohead song was playing in my head: "Creep — I don't belong here." Like, what did I get myself into? In the end I broke the matching and I left Korea early. The girl was devastated about it. But I just wasn't in the right frame of mind to go there in the first place. I was just grieving. My dad had just passed away a month ago. Like, what am I doing? I just had to heal.

Hosts: That must've taken a lot of courage to do in the moment, when there's so much pressure to go through with it — but to recognize within yourself that something is saying this is not right, and to extricate yourself. I just want to acknowledge that. Sometimes people think it's better to ignore themselves and say, nope, I need to soldier on through. But it takes great courage to recognize what you actually need and to do that.

Ten-Seng: Thank you. I appreciate that. A lot of times people try to soldier through, and then they end up breaking it later, and then all those years are gone. So I appreciate the silver-lining view of that. Actually, I think she's blessed and has kids now too. So I'm happy about that.

Hosts: Happy ever after for both, right?

Ten-Seng: Yeah, for both. But it's really interesting — after that, I came back to New York. I updated my matching profile on bcmatching.org. I don't know if that's still the site, but for those listeners out there, our church has its own matching website, and it's curated. There are no weirdos there — it's not like Tinder, where it could be anybody, could be a complete scam artist.

Hosts: eHarmony for Unificationists.

Ten-Seng: Usually the parents approve the profile to be up there. Anyway, I updated that my dad had passed, and then a week after that, I got a message out of the blue from this family I'd never heard of. Apparently they were in Taiwan as well, but they were Japanese missionaries in Taiwan, and the mom was really interested, and the daughter was in the U.S. So we started a little communication there. I even visited a couple of times, but that also didn't work. This time the roles were reversed — she was the one kind of like, I don't think this is going to work out. And this time, I was the one kind of devastated. Looking back, maybe it was just like indemnity for what I did. Father Moon said that breaking someone's heart is kind of like a sin, if you do it. If you're completely responsible, then yeah, it's kind of a sin. So I had to go through the same thing on my end. Then, okay, now I paid my debts.

Ten-Seng: Not long after that — literally a few days after — we got the news that Father was sick. Father Moon was sick, like really sick. Everyone was asked to do some conditions — fast, pray, do some kind of spiritual devotion to send good energy towards Father Moon, wish him good health. So I started doing that too, and it was so therapeutic. These two or three days of fasting and praying, going to the Holy Rock over at Belvedere, which is another one of our properties in New York, with other members — I felt it was very therapeutic and helped me clear up a lot of spiritual baggage, relationship stuff. And I was wiser. I knew what I wanted. I knew myself better. It's not about being picky, but knowing what kind of person you'd be compatible with, being more clear about your goals.

Ten-Seng: So I decided to look again on the matching website, and I had three search criteria. One was around my age, because I had those past two experiences where it was someone four years younger and then three years older — I felt that gap was a little too much. So I preferred someone within a year or two. Second was willing to do an international Blessing. And third was never been blessed before — because the girl right before, she had been blessed before, and I was just not ready for all that baggage. I still wanted to make it work, but looking back, she had stuff, and I didn't have the foundation to help her with that. So I'd rather have someone with similar experience as me. I entered that into the search. Maybe 30 names came up, but I just spiritually narrowed it down to three, then two, then down to this one name. And it's funny because her profile hadn't been updated in two years. So she could have left the church, she could have been blessed already — who knows. But somehow I just had the feeling that she was still available. So I decided to shoot her a message on Facebook. I found her on Facebook and shot her a message. And funny enough, she responds pretty much right away and mentions to me that she just finished a three-day fast herself and suddenly got three inquiries from three different guys. But I was the first.

Hosts: First in the door. Talk about crazy timing.

Ten-Seng: That's kind of how it started. We hit it off. I was very straightforward in my questions, because I learned from the past — you don't want to waste all this time getting to know them and then find out that your goals are completely different. So off the bat, I asked her, are you willing to move here, and got those out of the way.

Hosts: Where was she from?

Ten-Seng: Korea, South Korea. She's full Korean. Her parents are actually the same Blessing as mine — 6,000 couples in Korea, 1982, October. 41 years anniversary just passed. So that's how I met my wife. I flew over to Korea to meet. That was during Chuseok, which is like the Korean Thanksgiving. So I basically met her whole family the very first time I visited her.

Hosts: One big Korean family — that's not overwhelming.

Ten-Seng: It was pretty overwhelming. But the whole thing was kind of magical. They accepted me right away. They welcomed me with open arms. They made me do this toast — it wasn't soju, it was a more special wine that they drink just during Chuseok, a cherry-based wine. So I downed it. I'm part of the family now. All right — can I marry your daughter? It was pretty cool, because most of them aren't church members. Maybe it's just the culture, but they just welcomed this little stranger into their house. That's how it got started. Then I visited her a couple more times. I came for a 40-day workshop at our — it's kind of like our Mecca — it's called Cheongpyeong. She worked at Cheongpyeong, so I got to see her a lot. That kind of worked out. And then we got blessed six months later, the big Foundation Day Blessing, by the lunar calendar of January 13th. It was February 17th by the regular solar calendar. So that's our anniversary.

Hosts: Wow, incredible story. You were so proactive.

Ten-Seng: That's me. Not everybody is like that. Not every girl would be open to that kind of thing. Some would be pretty off-put by that. But in her case, she was open to it, so it worked out.

Hosts: Incredible. So you guys are now based in the U.S. — she did make the move. And you have kids. I'm wondering what keeps you inspired now that you have a family. What keeps you in this faith and nourishes you spiritually?

Ten-Seng: I owe everything in my relationship with God to this movement. If it weren't for this movement, I wouldn't have this relationship with God. So I want the same thing for my kids. Even if institutionally the Unification Church is not around anymore — that could always happen — I want to make sure that I instill the traditions and values in my kids, whether it's an institution or not. My daughter is a lot like me, actually. She's very inquisitive, especially about all kinds of things, including religious or spiritual things, since an early age. She even had dreams of my dad, who she never met. My dad would appear in her dreams. It was always a very pleasant thing — taking her to eat ice cream, or building something.

Hosts: That's so cool.

Ten-Seng: It's very cool. She doesn't have them anymore, but she had them when she was really young, like three or four years old. So I want to make sure she's fed the right spiritual food, and not fed something unhealthy that can make her go the wrong path in life later. What I like about San Diego is — our community is small here, but it's a good community. The Sunday School is small. It's just one family that teaches, and it's usually just them and then my kids, and maybe one of the family's kids. A little house-on-the-prairie kind of thing. All ages in one classroom, learning the same stuff. But my kids like going to church. They actually like going to church, for the first time in their life.

Hosts: Wow, that says a lot. It really does.

Ten-Seng: "Daddy, are we going to church this week? Is Vera coming this week?" Yes, yes.

Hosts: You talked about how your family is nourished by going to church, and I'm guessing that nourishes you back, seeing your kids accept you as a person of faith. Seeing your kids accept this faith and be excited by it and have friends in this movement at church — that's a big deal. Not everybody has that same experience, and I'd say it's probably a big testament to you and your wife, of how you've talked about your faith and your beliefs and values that they are embracing it.

Ten-Seng: Absolutely. My wife's faith is also pretty simple. She said it this way — she sees herself as a child of True Parents. And that makes total sense, because True Parents matched our parents. Our parents are kind of like the Petri dish, but who actually put those things together? It's True Parents. So we are actually the children. I think that's just kind of a childlike faith in her regard. But she lets me do all the talking with our kids. Usually, I handle all those questions.

Hosts: Oh, they ask you some tough questions?

Ten-Seng: Yeah. Sometimes I have to pause and think about how to answer. It's just stuff about spirit world and the nature of Satan. My son, he's younger, so he would ask things like, God made trees. I'm trying to help him distinguish what are man-made things and what are God-made things, just to give him a concept that there are things beyond human ability to make. We don't know how to make trees. We can plant trees, but can we generate seeds out of elements? Nothing. No. So I'm just trying to teach that kind of stuff for now.

Hosts: Oh, that's an important foundation, right? I'm impressed that you tackle it that deeply. One time when my oldest daughter was four, she was telling us about this girl that she'd made friends with who was older, who was talking about boyfriends and girlfriends. She was asking us about it. My husband tried to answer her question, and not just answer her question, but also take the opportunity to instill some of our beliefs and our values — which is, we wait until we're mature enough emotionally to start looking for someone to settle down with. He was like, well, don't you think it's so wonderful that Oma and Appa, we didn't kiss anybody else until we got married? The look on her face was like, what? What are you talking about? Just too deep, too much. I was like, boys can be friends, but we don't do boyfriends, okay? We don't kiss boys when you're little. She was like, okay. How old was she? Four or five. Yeah, that's really young. The look of confusion on her face — what are you talking about?

Hosts: From the light to the heavy with kids — you're trying to instill these values in them. It's probably the hardest thing, to practice your faith, to pass that down to the next generation and leave a lineage.

Ten-Seng: On that topic, I have to be really careful how I live, because you can teach kids with your words, but they always look at your actions. I think any parent can relate to that. I think I'm still okay — they still listen to what I have to say. But sometimes they call me out on my hypocrisy.

Hosts: Kids are good at that.

Ten-Seng: Daddy, you said this, but how come you're doing that?

Hosts: They're all about fairness, right? It has to be fair and equal. Being around kids more these days, it definitely keeps you on your toes as the adult in the situation. You're like, oh, am I being taught something right now that I need to look at in myself?

Ten-Seng: Oh, for sure. It can be quite confronting.

Hosts: I think it's one of the hardest actual spiritual practices. Maybe a lot of people don't think of parenting, or being a responsible adult to children, even for a short period of time — they're looking for how to be in the world. They're looking for someone to guide them, and to butt up against in a safe way. They're testing you because they're testing themselves. And it's hard not to be triggered by that, and to be confronted with it in yourself. I'm sure, Ten-Seng, that you're doing your best. Kids are a mirror. And I think if anything, the story that you've shared with us today about your journey really shows the intentionality behind the life that you try to live, as an example for them. Thank you for sharing that with us, really.

Ten-Seng: Thank you. I tend to just kind of spill everything.

Hosts: We're grateful that you did. I'm sure there will be some listeners out there that really resonate deeply with your story too. It's not easy to come on to a podcast and bare your soul and the trials that you've been through in your life. I think both Sungmi and I genuinely appreciate how vulnerable you've been with us today.

Ten-Seng: Thank you for having me on. I did want to come on, if it helps any listeners out there with whatever they're going through, or if they just want to know more about what this movement is really about, instead of media headlines and whatever sensationalization is out there.