🇺🇸Mary Bizot Johnson

Hosts: So thank you so much, Mary, for joining us today. We're so excited to have you. This is definitely a long time coming for our listeners. For our listeners, I also worked for the U.S. State Department for five years at the U.S. Embassy in London, so I'm super excited for this interview. I loved working there, and getting to interview you — I've been so excited to do this.

Hosts: So Mary, what was your life trajectory when you met the Unification Movement? We mentioned a little bit in the intro that you're really interested in science and you had a shift during your missionary work. But what were your life plans? What was going on in your family life, your career, your school?

Mary: Well, I was in school 1972 and 1973. I went to the University of Massachusetts in Boston. When I was studying biology there, I thought my life trajectory was to go ahead and prepare for the med exam, the medical exam that lets you go into med school, because a couple of my friends were doing that, and it seemed like that was the right thing to do. I even volunteered in a women's clinic in Cambridge, Massachusetts, to really understand more what doctors do.

Mary: Somehow in the early months of 1973, I had this feeling that I did not want to take that exam. It took a lot of study to pass that exam. It was just a strong feeling and I didn't know why. My friends said, well, what are you going to do then? I said, I don't know, but I just feel like more important than studying all those years to learn how to heal people's bodies, somehow I feel like I need to heal people's hearts or souls. But I didn't know what I was really leaning toward, because I loved biology and I was very much involved in studying biology.

Mary: I continued until the month of May of 1973, and then from the University of Massachusetts, I got a summer job at Boston University. It was in a lab, and they were studying genetics. I was happy to get a summer job, and it looked exciting. But when I went up to talk to the woman that was running the lab, I had always had in my heart this love for science, because it was so amazing how the universe works, how nature is. Although I didn't think of it always as God, I just thought there must be some creative force — this just didn't happen by accident.

Mary: So I went up to talk to the professor who was running the lab, and I tried to bring this up. She was like, no, everything's evolution, everything's evolution. And she wouldn't even listen to me. I'm like, it doesn't make sense that everything's evolution, because I knew enough science to know that random mutations are usually fatal. So how could the whole world be created just that way? Then my colleague in this lab at Boston University, he was completely into Jesus. I would talk to him about the creation, and he would say, no, no, no, God created everything in six days, that's it, no discussion. So there I was, searching for something, but I didn't know what.

Mary: In those days, there were no mobile phones, no ways to talk by text. But there were these big bulletin boards at Boston University, and at all the schools with all these notes on it — I need a roommate, I'm driving to Pittsburgh, I need someone to go with me. One day I was looking at one of those bulletin boards, maybe looking if anyone had a typewriter, I can't remember what I was looking for. I saw this very small sign that said, can science and religion work together to make a better world? And on all those notes of paper, my eyes went right there. There was a little workshop that was going to happen that weekend in a small room on Boston University campus. So I wrote it all down. It was only a donation. I could give any donation I wanted to attend, so I thought I could afford that.

Mary: It was at the Newman Center at Boston University on a Saturday morning, a beautiful May morning. I ended up knocking on the door to find out if this is where the conference about science and religion was. When I was welcomed there by a very nice gentleman, his name was Dr. Edwin Ong. He was very kind and welcomed me. He never once said the workshop started 30 minutes ago, you're late — he just welcomed me in. First of all, he talked to me about what I was doing, and I explained to him I was in this kind of situation. I didn't know if there was, what God was or anything for sure. But I just knew that because of my study in science, there just had to be more than just saying everything happened by chance.

Mary: Based on that, this wonderful gentleman, Dr. Ong, began to teach me something. He said, do you have about two hours? I said, I do, I do. He had a big whiteboard, and he wrote at the top, the Principle of Creation. I didn't realize at the time, but I was actually hearing the first chapter of what's called the Divine Principle. As Dr. Ong was teaching this Principle of Creation, my heart just started opening up. I was so amazed at what I was hearing, how he was explaining the way nature, everything in nature is in pairs. As he explained, I felt my spirit lightening up. At one point, he put the yin-yang symbol on this whiteboard. He was explaining about the masculine nature and the feminine nature in creation. Dr. Ong was from Indonesia of Chinese descent.

Mary: I had to interrupt him. I said, excuse me, is this your teaching? Is this what you developed? I still remember he smiled very quietly. He said no. He reached up — there were some books on a bookshelf. He took down the book and opened it. He showed me this beautiful picture of a Korean man, a very nice picture of a young man. He said, no, this is a revelation. This is a revelation from this man who is Reverend Sun Myung Moon. At that moment, I was so struck because as a scientist, I wasn't thinking of revelations. But somehow when he said that, I became very quiet. I just started listening closely and more and more closely. I asked so many questions that morning that it went far beyond two hours. I actually ate lunch there, and I stayed there till almost six o'clock at night, asking question after question. And yet every question I asked was answered. That began my journey.

Mary: Over the next two weeks, I came back every other day, and either Dr. Ong or someone would teach me chapter by chapter, all parts of the Divine Principle.

Hosts: That's amazing, Mary. So you spent an entire day asking this Dr. Ong, this Chinese man, all these questions and getting your answers met. What happened after that day?

Mary: So what happened after that day is — that was a workshop at Boston University. The Unification Movement, which they called at the time the unification family there in Boston, had a small center in Allston. I would go there on my bicycle about every other day, and someone would teach me the next chapter. It seemed like there were many, many chapters. But each one was very interesting — talking about how evil entered the world, that was called the Fall of Man. The mission of Jesus struck me very deeply when I heard that, because I've been raised a Catholic and there was a lot of questions I had about Jesus that no one had ever tried to answer before. So I just kept going. Every time I tried to invite some of my friends to come, but they were all busy and I couldn't really explain to them why I was so excited about what I was hearing.

Mary: We reached the second part of the Divine Principle. It starts to explain about history. Through this history, we're looking at what was in the Bible, all the Old Testament stories, and of course, the story of Jesus. Then it went on to start to explain that there are parallels between what happened in the time before Jesus and what happened in Christianity after Jesus. This fascinated me, because although I really loved science, I'd always been interested in history too. When I started to hear how history kind of repeats, certain parallels between the years prior to Jesus and then Christianity, I became more and more intrigued.

Mary: But as the Divine Principle continued, I realized this is moving towards something. This is moving toward a conclusion. I could feel that. And sure enough, what I was learning is that — and this, I guess, was the really eye-opening part for me — the way God was preparing the world for what Christianity calls the return of Christ, the second coming of Christ, was actually through history itself. The return would be coming not through some phenomena that would come out of the sky, but actually through history. God would be sending someone into this world to continue the mission of Jesus. Because Jesus had come to make a world of peace and a kingdom of God. He always talked about that. But we know after he left this earth, actually the world got worse, if you look at history.

Mary: As we're moving towards this conclusion, I was told that there'd be one more chapter, and I wanted to hear what this conclusion would be. I was thinking, hmm, so maybe they're going to say that this is the plan of history, and in the future, God will send someone to this world that will be taking up Jesus' mission. One important part of the Divine Principle I really liked is that the idea was that we, who are living on the earth, would work together with whomever God would send. We work together to build God's kingdom. We have a responsibility, those of us that are here now. This appealed to me, as a young person of course, 23 years old. I wanted to do something to make the world better.

Mary: So as I moved towards this conclusion, thinking this would be something happening in the future, the last part, they explained all these parallels of history, and they added up the years, looking at how many years before Jesus, in the time of Jesus, and going up till now. All of a sudden, they were explaining that this means that sometime between maybe 1917, 1920, the person that God was sending would return. I said, you mean, he's already here? That surprised me so much. I wasn't expecting it at all. I was ready to hear that maybe God would be sending someone to guide the world towards the world of peace.

Mary: After I heard that conclusion, I was sort of taken aback. I was shocked. I remember I left the center in Allston, I went home, and I didn't want to have anything more to do with the Unification Movement. Because if this were true, then something in my life would have to change. And I was not ready at that point. Deep in my heart, I wasn't ready for that. What did I do? Again, this was not the time of cell phones. So in my apartment, I took the telephone off the hook. I didn't want the people I'd met — even though they had such an interesting way of explaining the Divine Principle, and it sounded so good — when I heard this conclusion, that this was the time, not in the future, that we needed to come together and work together with God and start to make the world that we all desire, it was almost too much for me. So I took the phone off the hook. I thought, I'm just going to forget everything I heard.

Mary: But I couldn't. I went back to my job. I rode my bike to my job every day, and I kept thinking about it. I still remember there was this moment, I was doing the dishes, I think it was a Sunday night. It just came to me that when I was a little girl, I used to always think, if I was alive in the time of Jesus, I wouldn't have been throwing rocks at him, or I would have been with him. I wouldn't have been like Peter, saying that I didn't know him at all. No, I would have been right there speaking up for him. I would have been in the front row. I always thought of that when I was a young girl. So I remember that night, I was washing the dishes, and it was like, if this is true, you've got to find out if it's true. You've got to go back to that center and listen again, and talk to them again, and try to understand.

Mary: So that's what I did. The next day, I picked up the phone. I called. What was really funny, it had already been like two weeks. When I called, the person who answered didn't even remember who I was, because there were a lot of people coming and hearing the Divine Principle, coming to workshops who never came back. But finally, they remembered who I was. They said, okay, we just want to talk to you. They wanted to be really sure that I was serious, that I wasn't just maybe looking for a place to live or something like this. I said, no, no, I'll come. So I came there, and I talked again to Dr. Ong and to his wife. I really shared with them my heart, that it had taken me a long time to realize that I really want to find out if this Divine Principle is the truth. The way to do it is that I wanted to join the center and to work with the Unification Movement. So that was in July of 1973. That's how I actually joined.

Hosts: Wow, that's amazing. It sounds like, for a lot of people who are unfamiliar with our movement, it's hard to understand how we could come to follow our founders. But it sounds to me that your experience of this was really that there was some very clear logic. You were studying science at university and medicine. It's so fascinating that as you were hearing that there is structure and science in the way that God worked to kind of lead people to a point where we can really start to make a difference together and to connect with the heart of that also. So thank you for sharing that. You said you joined the center. You moved in and were officially part of the movement. What kind of conversations were you having with other members?

Mary: Well, at that time, there were three Americans, two Austrians, and the rest of the members were Japanese. They didn't speak English very well. But the conversations I had with the Americans, two of whom had been with the movement for a while, they were sharing how they got such joy from going out and talking to other people and having people come to the workshops and have experiences like I did. I listened, because I'd never done something like that in my life where I would actually go out and invite other people to come. I was a little shy at first, but I started to do that. We'd go to the Boston Common, we'd go to universities, and we'd just reach out to people and start to talk to them.

Mary: I also went to a full workshop, which was seven days. That was in New York State. We all went down there by van. At that workshop, I could talk to a lot of other people about how they had been inspired, like myself, to really want to know more about the Divine Principle. I began to feel even more deeply than when I first realized that God had been working through many people in many different ways. We'd all been moved by different things. Like I was moved by the science and then by the history. Other people were moved by hearing about Jesus' life. But somehow, we all came to the same heart, where we wanted to work together. As I said, we called ourselves a unified family. We wanted to work together to build this world of peace, this world of harmony. We had wonderful songs we'd sing, very special songs that really brought us closer together. I think that was when I realized, mostly through conversations I had with others.

Hosts: I'm curious to know, did you face any difficulties in making that decision to join in with this group of people on campus? I know sometimes it's a difficult decision for people to understand. Did you face any kind of opposition or struggles with that?

Mary: Well, it's interesting because one of my very, very good friends, she was dating a man. They were planning to get married. He was a very strong socialist. Actually, he was a communist. In Boston at that time, there was everything — socialist, communist. When I went to try to talk to her and share my heart with her, she absolutely did not want to hear anything, because what I was saying was centered on God, working with God to make this better world. So that was painful. She didn't oppose me, but it was painful because our friendship just grew apart. Then there were a few other friends who I wasn't quite as close to. They also were wondering, because a couple of times they saw me out on the Boston Common talking to people and they were wondering what I was doing. But they didn't oppose it.

Mary: My family also, they didn't oppose. I was supposed to go on a family vacation with them at the end of that summer. I did disappoint them, because I called them up and said, I don't think I can join you for the vacation. It was out in Indiana and we were going to go to Arizona, I think, to see the Grand Canyon. So that kind of hurt them. But later that year, I went home for Christmas and I explained to them much more about this new movement that I was involved in. So no, there wasn't any real opposition. Just particularly a couple of friendships got more distant, but that was all.

Hosts: That's nice to hear that you didn't have to face too much difficulty. You didn't have to give up your whole world. And that people could be supportive, even though they might not fully understand with the same level of knowledge, but that they could still be supportive of your journey is wonderful.

Mary: Of course, that was 1973. So many people were going on so many different journeys, not just Boston, but all through America. People were looking for different things. There were so many groups then.

Hosts: So you mentioned Reverend Moon. Can you talk a little bit about that? Did you have a relationship with them? Did you meet them? There's a lot of opinions and definitely, sometimes it can be difficult to understand why you would follow this older Korean man and this new philosophy. Can you talk a little bit about your relationship with Reverend and Mrs. Moon?

Mary: Yes. So actually, in addition to the Divine Principle, which was in a book, very organized — we would read and I joined the center, every morning we would do readings, we'd say prayer, and then we'd do a reading, which was the speeches that Reverend Moon had given, primarily since he came to America. He came to America, I think in 1971, and this was 1973. There was an estate down in New York called Belvedere, a beautiful place on the Hudson River, and there was a center there where every Sunday, Reverend Moon, whom we affectionately call Father Moon, would speak. His wife was always there, Dr. Hak Ja Han Moon, whom we call Mother Moon. Sometimes we'd have an opportunity to go down on Sunday from Boston down to Tarrytown, New York, and I could listen to him speak in person.

Mary: He would speak, we would sit on the floor Korean style. That was new for us. For most Americans, our legs got pretty tired, but we learned to do that. What moved my heart so much beyond the Divine Principle was really listening and watching how he poured out his heart with so much love and so much caring. He would usually speak for about an hour on a Sunday morning, maybe two hours. Now, he was speaking in Korean with a translator. I know even when I was joining, a lot of people would be like, how can you follow or go to the speeches of someone who doesn't even speak English? But it was amazing how he and his translator would become almost one, and we could really understand it. He was just pouring out so much about God's love, and particularly how much God's heart was broken when Adam and Eve fell, when Adam and Eve went away from God and disobeyed God. God's heart has been longing to bring us all back, back to the way we were supposed to be, living in love and harmony. Again, as a young person, he really inspired me.

Mary: In addition, I had a personal chance to be with Father Moon and Mother Moon. They came to Boston in October of 1973, when I was just a fairly new member of our movement. They spoke for three nights, and they stayed right at our center. They stayed in the center, they didn't stay at a hotel. Dr. Ong, whom I mentioned is the one who introduced me to the Divine Principle, he and his wife were what we called the center leaders. They were our counselors and kind of guiding us. I had the amazing opportunity that Mrs. Ong asked me if I could help in the kitchen and just be able to serve the meals to Father Moon and Mother Moon while they were staying there. I was very honored to do that.

Mary: When they came to Boston, I was able just to serve them, to ask them, would you like more coffee? Would you like more tea? They would answer me in English. At that time, Father Moon and Mother Moon didn't speak a lot of English, but they understood English and they could answer. It just was an amazing experience to feel like family. But the day that particularly stood out, because that was three days, is when Dr. Ong's young son, he was two years old, he just ran into the dining room, you know, two-year-olds do that. Father Moon and Mother Moon were so happy to see him, because they had come to America and they had left all their children back in Korea. Their children were waiting just to get their U.S. visas finalized, so their children weren't with them. This, again, is October 1973. I still remember just the joy on their faces to see this little boy. Father put him on his lap, I took some pictures. It was just an amazing, loving family feeling. I feel so blessed and so honored that I could have that experience.

Hosts: That sounds incredible. So you mentioned that you went out as a missionary for the Unification Movement in 1975. Can you talk a bit about that? Did you volunteer? Were you assigned? And what was your time like as a missionary?

Mary: Well, unlike my taking two weeks to even decide, am I going to find out if this Divine Principle and Unification Movement are really true, something I want to give my life to — in 1975, in the month of February, I'd been asked to witness, meaning going out and just inviting people to come to a Divine Principle workshop by talking to them, finding out what they're into and are they thinking about spiritual things or not. Or like myself, are they interested in science and maybe a way science and religion can work together. My assignment at that time was at Harvard University. Our central leader sent us all to different universities. I was asked to go to Harvard. I'd been there for about three weeks, not having an easy time, because when I would sit down and talk to the Harvard students, they would be lacking a lot of philosophy and some people weren't interested at all. It wasn't easy to find someone who might be interested in coming to a Divine Principle workshop. So I would pray and I'd go out every day and I'd try my best, but it wasn't easy at all.

Mary: One evening, I called back to the center, again, using a pay phone. There was no mobile phone. I said, I'm going to be a little late coming home on the T, on the subway, but I'll be there. He wasn't the center director. He was one of the brothers that was working in the New England area. He said, someone would like to talk to you. Mike would like to talk to you, Mike Smith. I said, sure. He picked up the phone. He said, Mary, Father Moon, Mother Moon, they're sending missionaries out. Most of the missionaries they're sending out are couples in our movement that are already blessed and married. But there's a few countries where we don't yet have any missionaries. He said, your name is Bizot. Is that a French name? I said, yes, it is a French name. So, well, there's a small country in Africa called Central Africa, and they speak French. Would you like to go there as a missionary? He straight asked me. With almost no hesitation, maybe five seconds, I said, yes. I asked him again, so what's the name of the country? He said, it's called the Central African Republic. I thought I knew a little bit about the world, but I had never heard of that country.

Mary: I still remember, I hung up the phone. It was in the Harvard Library, Harvard University Library. I walked down the steps, and I looked up at the sky, and there was a full moon above Harvard University. I just said a prayer. I said, God, is that same moon, the moon that shines in Africa? That was my heart. It was amazing. I just felt at that moment that I needed to say yes, that somehow there was a time in my life now when I needed to go beyond Boston, beyond Cambridge. That was actually pretty amazing to me that I said yes, but I did.

Mary: We then went to a training down at what is now called the Unification Theological Seminary. It's part of our Unification Movement. It's in New York also, closer to Kingston, New York. I went down there for a training for about three months, and it was during that time I could do more research about the Central African Republic. What I found out about it, to be very honest with you, made me a little bit afraid, because at that time the Central African Republic, which is a landlocked country right in the middle of Africa — if you look at Africa, it would be like the bullseye, the exact middle of Africa — was being ruled by a dictator who'd been in there for many years. His name was Jean-Bédel Bokassa. When I read about all this, I was like, oh dear, what have I said yes to? But another part of me was very much filled with the desire to go out and bring this Divine Principle to other countries. All the countries we were going to, there had never been a missionary there who had taught about the Divine Principle or about this new movement, the Unification Movement.

Mary: So we were going out as one person from America and one person from Germany and one person from Japan. There would be three of us going to each country. I was in that training for three months, and through a lot of prayer, we did a lot of study and practice teaching of Divine Principle. Also at that time, Father Moon and Mother Moon would come about once a week to speak to us. They'd come up from where they were living in Tarrytown, New York, to speak to us and encourage us. What I remember from that time is Father Moon saying that we should go to our mission countries with the heart of Jesus and just walk every path of that country with the same heart that Jesus walked the paths of Israel. Jesus wanted to bring to all the people of Israel God's truth, and that the kingdom of God is coming through God's love and God's truth. Father Moon asked us to go to our mission countries with that heart. So we left for our mission countries in May 1975, and I stayed in Central Africa until January of 1983 as a missionary.

Hosts: What was your experience working with the Central African people and witnessing, and what was that like for you? Especially in a nation ruled by a dictator at that time, that must have been such an interesting experience.

Mary: It wasn't easy, I'll be honest. The biggest problem was the language. Yes, I had French ancestors. My father's last name was Bizot. I studied French in high school, so I thought I could speak a little French. When I got to Central Africa, I had the experience of trying to speak — no one could understand me. And that heart was so difficult. The German missionary who came did speak a little French, and the Japanese brother who came didn't speak any French or any English, but that was okay because I really wanted to speak French. I thought I could. That was the most frustrating thing. I did finally get tutoring by a very lovely nun, a French nun who had spent her whole life in Central Africa. She was at least in her 80s. She was going to spend her whole life there, a missionary. She taught me one-on-one and I began to break through and could speak French.

Mary: Once I could speak French well enough, I really, really wanted to go out and do the same work I'd been doing in the U.S., to talk to people. I thought it would be difficult, but I was so surprised. Once I could speak enough French, the Central Africans were very happy to come to our center. It was a small center. They were happy to come and they were happy to listen to the Divine Principle. I taught the Divine Principle in French. How did I do it? I had a French translation of the Divine Principle and I would just read it at first. I was amazed they understood. But still, even though many came and they listened, no one really wanted to join. What we were hoping is that we could create a center and create a movement there in Central Africa. So people would come and they would listen sometimes for one day or a three-day workshop and they would go home.

Mary: I prayed so much and I talked with my Japanese brother and my sister from Germany. What can we do? How can we actually get people to understand deeply and to join our movement? I guess that's kind of my nature. I like to see progress forward. They kept saying it takes time. It takes patience, especially my sister from Germany. She grew up on a farm and she would tell me, you have to plant the seeds, Mary, and they take time to grow before they can become fruit, before the tomatoes and the cucumbers and everything can become fruit and have a harvest. So I think I learned patience, but I also learned by going through all this — actually it took about three years before we really had anyone who wanted to join us and work together with us.

Mary: I also learned something that was probably the most life-changing part. As I mentioned, I was very interested in science. I'd been working at Harvard, trying to reach out to people. I realized in Central Africa, where the average young man might finish elementary school or middle school, many of the young women didn't even go to elementary school. They were just expected to learn to be a good wife and mother, and very few people went to the university. By all the pouring out of sharing and love and trying to explain the Divine Principle to the Central Africans, I began to realize that God's kingdom of love is a kingdom of heart. It's not the kingdom of the mind. Of course we want to use our minds and we want to be creative, but the key point is how can we love and serve and how can we live for others. That for me was the life-changing experience. I often say that I feel like Central Africa gave me much more than I gave to Central Africa.

Mary: After a few years, we did have members that started to join, and it was good. Then after five years we even had an amazing experience where Father Moon and Mother Moon sent one of the leaders from Korea, and they looked into the possibility of us starting a small school in Central Africa to educate young men in particular who were not able to finish more than elementary school — to educate them in different trades like carpentry and masonry and plumbing and things like this. At that time the government changed. The same time that we were trying to get this idea going, there was a change in government. This dictator was overthrown, if you look at history, overthrown by the French army. Another person came in as the president who was a Christian man and he was open to our idea.

Mary: So amazingly enough, starting out so slowly the first three years, by about the fifth year we were able to start this project. It was called FARMAP, and we had big vision and a big plan, and we had about 150 young men that signed up for it. We were working with this new government to try to make this happen. So it was all very wonderful, but then a huge disappointment came. This again is history — at that time François Mitterrand was the president of France, and he was a socialist, and his son came to visit Central Africa. Someone in the Ministry of Youth told him about this project, and he went to see the project, but he found that behind it was Father Moon and Mother Moon. The son of François Mitterrand did not like that. At that time, Father Moon and Mother Moon and our movement were being very persecuted in France. Unfortunately, because of that, after only about 11 months of this project, we were asked to close it down. The Central African government said we had to close it down. I tell you, that was such a difficult time, very, very difficult. We did it, but it was heartbreaking.

Mary: Even though we shut down our project, as the government said, there were some people saying that we were not really shutting it down, that we were just going to do it secretly. It was all not true. But as a result of that, the government came and they arrested all of the missionaries. They arrested us all. After two weeks, we were deported from the Central African Republic. That happened in January 1983. That was very, very difficult, because we were pouring out our heart. We wanted these young men to have this opportunity. Then everything took a different course. But that being said, by that time, I was married to a man, a brother from New York, and he had come to join me in Central Africa. We were all deported, but we were able to continue our mission in Nigeria. Then later we continued in the country of Chad. So that's why we were able to work as missionaries all the way up to 1991.

Mary: That was a very, very difficult time of my life, even my life of faith, because I thought we poured out everything. And yet it stopped so suddenly because of one man, specifically the son of François Mitterrand. But in any case, we went on. Many years later, when I was working in the State Department, I was assigned to Cameroon, which is the neighboring country to the Central African Republic. I was asked to go to the Central African Republic on a short mission there to help out on some issues about the visa section. I was able to visit Central Africa one more time. Our members were still there. They continued on, even though the missionaries had left. So I was able to meet with them, and we could see each other again, and we could pray together. Somehow I could have my heart soothed, even though we had had to leave Central Africa in such a difficult way.

Hosts: Wow, that's powerful that you were able to have some closure. I'm curious to know, in the face of all of that extreme disappointment — it must have been so heart-wrenching for you to go through. What was it that kept you going? Or, I'm a huge Brené Brown fan, so I love to understand what it is that helps people be resilient in the face of such difficulty.

Mary: Yeah, I think about that moment. When we were deported from Central Africa, I felt I was cut off from my children. My husband was very supportive then. We were together. He said, it might be all right, you have to look at the long term. Things might turn out all right in the long term. But honestly speaking, it was quite difficult. His support was very important. We were just asked in Nigeria — we went up to northern Nigeria to the city of Kano and to kind of start over again there, which we did. We tried to do the same thing we did in Central Africa. But it did take a few years before I could feel confident. Then later, we were asked to go to Chad, which is a neighboring country to Nigeria. It's just north of the Central African Republic.

Mary: I suppose what kept me going through all of that time is that understanding that God had gone through this too. There have been many times in history where God had been extremely disappointed. Maybe even one of them was when Moses smashed the Ten Commandments, if you know that story. The first time he came down from the mountain, the people were dancing and singing, and he just smashed the Ten Commandments. But then he went back up and he tried again. I think that's what might have held me together. But it was a difficult time.

Hosts: You mentioned about the disappointment of God. There are a lot of religious perspectives that come with the concept of God as being omnipotent and omniscient, and that everything is happening the way that it's supposed to. Where did you learn about this concept of a God who is disappointed or a God who grieves? What was that like for you? How did it feel to learn about that perspective, which may have been very different?

Mary: I think that's what appealed to me in the beginning, back in 1973, when I was studying the Divine Principle. The Divine Principle explains that we, as women and men, have a responsibility — that when God created us, he created us with this responsibility to grow and to mature. That's actually a wonderful gift from God, because as we grow and as we mature, we can understand more about God's heart, God's own perspective. He gave that to Adam and Eve. He gave them a responsibility. The Bible puts it as a commandment, but that was their responsibility. And they didn't do it.

Mary: Somehow, I realized through studying, but more through my experience as a missionary, that even when it's difficult, if I try my best, that's my responsibility. It's to try my best. And yet, if you look at what happens in all of human history, the people that God asked to try their best, some of them succeeded, some of them didn't. I just used Moses as an example, because he apparently was a very stubborn man — 40 days he fasted. He came down the mountain, he got upset, and he threw down the commandments, but then he went back up again. So he was an example of someone that was very loyal to God. Through my experiences, I realized that God needs people like that. He needs people. Of course, Jesus came and Jesus showed us the way to live. Jesus was also extremely loyal to God. He said, your will be done — as difficult as it was to go the way of the cross, he always said, God's will be done. That's something that I really realized both by studying, but mostly by experience, that God needs us, and we need God. It's really a partnership. I know that some people in different religions don't think that, they think that God can do everything, no matter what people do, but I really believe that we do have a part of responsibility.

Hosts: That's a powerful perspective, that God needs us. That it's not just God giving us grace, or has a plan for us, but we have to fulfill it. You're a mother of two children, now four grandchildren — I'm sure you had many experiences where you had to let your kids learn a lesson, or come to their own conclusions and make their decisions. I'd like to go a little bit into raising a family. If you can always let us know if you don't want to answer a question, or you'd like us to move on — but you're married and had two kids, and that marriage ended. I'm curious, in our faith community, we're taught that when you get married, you get blessed in marriage, that that marriage is eternal. I'm curious what that was like for you, maybe reconciling that, or what it was like in our faith community.

Mary: So, my former husband and I worked together very well when we were in Africa, even through all those disappointments. But it's interesting — I mentioned that after Nigeria, we went as missionaries to Chad. Once again, we had to leave that country very quickly. This time, not because we were deported, but there was a coup d'état, a change of government, fighting in the capital city of N'Djamena, where we lived. We were asked to leave. They wanted all Americans, foreigners, everybody to leave. That was in 1991. So that was how we kind of abruptly ended our missionary work. We ended up back in the United States, very, very abruptly. That then began a period in our marriage where things got very difficult.

Mary: We tried to resolve things, but at that time, we had two children. Our daughter was three and a half, and our son was one and a half. We tried everything we knew. The counseling — it just got so difficult. So we separated for quite a while. But I always had the hope that we could restore our marriage and our Blessing. That was always my hope. Because we are a movement of — yes, when we are blessed in marriage, we take a promise that it is for eternity, and not just till death do us part. We make a vow that we will do this, and no matter what, we will take responsibility. We were blessed in marriage in 1982.

Mary: Through all those years, it was extremely, extremely difficult. We tried and tried, and sometimes even now, I can look back and say, well, if things — I look back at myself, if I had done this differently, or if I had not said that, or if I had agreed to do this. You can always go back. But in the end, we realized that we couldn't reconcile it. So that was about four years ago that we officially divorced. But it was hard. I have to be honest with you, we are a movement of couples and families, and it's not easy. But I still know that there's hope for everyone. Actually, now, currently, when I go out talking to people about Divine Principle, I meet many people, both men and women, who are divorced. I'm able to share my heart with them, or listen to their heart — I think that's a better way to put it — because I understand what they've been through. But it's not easy, because our movement is definitely a movement centered on couples and family and making that commitment for eternity.

Hosts: Thank you for sharing. My current husband and I both come from divorce and separation. He's a father of three kids. There was definitely a time for both of us where we had to — the literal name of our movement is the Family Federation. And where do we fit in, into that family? It's really a test of your faith and your strength of heart. I think for both of us, it opened up our hearts a lot more to other people. I can say for myself, being a young, naive person, 18, 19, that was very limited to how you think of everything as black and white. But there's a quote by Father Moon that says, unhappiness and struggle don't necessarily lead to unhappiness and struggle. When you're in the middle of it, absolutely, it feels impossible. But one beautiful thing about our movement actually is how much it's grown, from hearing these stories and how embracing we can be with all our different families and situations and blended families.

Mary: And as you mentioned, the path of what we sometimes call the re-Blessing — in other words, a person that was blessed — yeah, it's a beautiful path. I know many people are walking that path. So there's always hope. And of course, even with my former husband, we always share our children and our grandchildren. So that will be there.

Hosts: I would like to ask, going back to your missionary work — you traveled a lot and had so many experiences. How did that segue into your career change to becoming a U.S. diplomat? Such two very different worlds — a religious career and then suddenly a career in government. What was that like? How did that come to be?

Mary: That's a good question. It was a very clear segue. I told you, we had to leave Chad. We were evacuated by the U.S. State Department. They asked us to leave. We didn't have to, but they wanted to protect us. There was fighting in the city and they wanted all — we were there as missionaries. We were registered at the embassy. They knew we were there. So they said, please leave. As we were leaving Chad, I noticed that all the State Department people were, quote, being taken care of. Their houses were going to be protected. The things they owned were going to be sent back to the U.S., all protected by the State Department. Where we were living, we were living with other members. So they protected our things. But we actually just had — we were allowed to take two suitcases. We had two small children, my husband and I, two small children, two suitcases, leave the country.

Mary: I was observing all this. I'm like, if we go back overseas, wouldn't it be better to be sort of under an umbrella of protection, like of the State Department, or maybe the USAID, U.S. Agency for International Development? By watching this as we left Chad, I went back to the United States and I talked to a few people who also had had to leave, but they worked for the State Department. I said, well, how do we get into the State Department? They said, you have to take an exam. So just a few months after we came back so abruptly, my husband and I both took this exam, not online like it is now — it was a written exam in 1992. We took the exam and I passed it. I think I passed it because I had lived overseas a long time and I knew a lot about the world and geography and different countries because I'd been in Africa a long time. I've always been pretty good in English, so I passed that part.

Mary: Still I was amazed that I passed this exam because, at that time, I had not quite finished college when I joined our movement. I was only like two-thirds of the way through college. But that didn't matter, because it's interesting — to join the State Department, all that's required is a high school diploma. A lot of people don't know that. So I could enter, and I passed the exam. I passed what they call the oral exam, which is a whole series of questions, a whole day long of questions. Although it wasn't said, I felt that because of my experience overseas and the fact I'd actually been living in countries like Central African Republic and Chad, somehow the State Department wanted me. But I was surprised. Of course, by that time I could speak French fluently, so that was a plus. In 1993, I was actually hired by the State Department. My first assignment was in Seoul, Korea in 1994. So that segue was really because of watching that, a feeling that if we're going overseas again, we need some kind of umbrella, especially having two small children.

Hosts: And were there any similarities, you would say, in the experiences as a missionary and working for State? For me personally, when I — I wasn't a diplomat, I only joined as a local employee — but I really observed this kind of, it felt more like a community. It wasn't like a business. It wasn't like a company. It was very much built around this ethos of serving people, whether that be through issuing visas or serving the expat American community or American tourists coming. That really connected with me, working there. So I'm curious, what were your observations? Were there any similarities or really glaring differences between the two career paths?

Mary: No, there were a lot of similarities. Our movement, of course, we have Father Moon and Mother Moon. They are directing the whole long-term vision of our movement. Then we have leaders at different levels, pastors, and what we call sometimes regional directors. As a movement, we tend to unite with and go forward with this large vision. It's very much the same in the State Department. The State Department's vision is how to carry out U.S. foreign policy. Then at any embassy, it's the ambassador who's taking that forward. Each of us has our position. I realized that by being in the Unification Movement, I was prepared very much so to work in the State Department. I actually found sometimes younger people joining right after graduate school had a harder time with that. They had a hard time with being kind of all following this vision, maybe set largely by the ambassador for a given country, and then moving forward as a team. So I realized that as a member of the Unification Movement since I was 23, I was prepared for that pretty well.

Mary: And what you said also, the serving — we are definitely there to serve. The number one reason — why is there an embassy in the Central African Republic or in Tonga or wherever? It's to serve American citizens who are traveling and also to try to move forward our policies of trade and things like that. So it's a serving position all around. You picked up on that, and it really is so. I think it actually is a good preparation.

Hosts: That's amazing. Do you have a favorite memory of your work as a diplomat?

Mary: Well, as you mentioned in the introduction, one of the moments that I felt really like I could be contributing to moving forward the policy was when we organized — and I was the spearhead — once my office at State Department got the funding from Congress to organize a conference that took place in the Philippines in Manila in 2000 about the problem of the trafficking of women and children in Asia. This was a huge problem that a lot of the world hadn't realized. I was working on that for almost a year, and to really see that come to fruition and to see that there were follow-on activities from that — it wasn't just the conference itself — that was a deep highlight in terms of my career. But also I could say that I have beautiful memories of when I was serving in East Africa in Tanzania. That's a beautiful country on the Indian Ocean. At that time, my political beat, as you would call it, I was in charge of reporting on Zanzibar. Zanzibar is part of Tanzania and it's an amazing little island. It has its own political history, its own political atmosphere. I had such enjoyable experiences doing that work, which I did for about three years while I was in Tanzania. Those were probably two of the highlights of my career as a diplomat.

Hosts: Wow, what a rich life experience you've had. Pretty amazing. As I've heard you sharing with us about your experience meeting the movement and your realizations, you touched on that God is not just a God of logic, but a God of heart, and it's the experience. It reminded me of this quote by the neuroscientist Jill Bolte Taylor, where she said, most of us think of ourselves as thinking creatures that feel, but we're actually feeling creatures that think. My question is, if there's one theme to the spiritual journey that you have walked in your lifetime, what would that theme be?

Mary: I think you're pretty much summarizing it for me. Before I met the Unification Movement, I really was that thinking person, trying to figure out the world. Was it evolution? Was it not evolution? How did the world come to be? Always from that logical point of view. But through living the teachings of the Divine Principle — of course, first studying and saying, oh, this is truth. This is logical. There must be some parallels in history. So this is God's time again to try to bring the kingdom of God to earth. But by living the teachings of the Divine Principle, meaning living for others, this is how I really realized that I have now grown to have a deep relationship with God. I trust God.

Mary: It probably does have to do a lot with the disappointments in Africa and the fact that my marriage and Blessing did not move forward as I'd hoped. I've developed this deep connection to God, a trust in God, that truly God himself, herself — because I believe God is a heavenly parent, our father and our mother. So our Heavenly Parent, God, really wants not just me, but every person, to be embraced in love. This is something I feel deeply in my heart. Being a grandmother just lets this blossom. As I take care of my grandchildren, both as infants and now the two oldest are six and seven years old, as this blossoms, this is what I've gained. This deep in my own heart, trusting God, believing that the external difficulties are inevitable, but the ultimate will be that we will all be embraced in our Heavenly Parent's love and God's love.