🇺🇸Joe Young

Hosts: Joe, you were born into the Unification movement. Can you tell us a particular memory that sums up your experience of growing up in the church?

Joe: I've brought this up a few times with people, and I get two reactions. One is a sense of fondness for this memory, and the other, when I've shared it with people, is, "Oh, God, I hated that." Something that just always burns in my mind is pledge service growing up. Back in those days, it was Sunday morning, and then it was every eight days, but there was a time when it was Sunday morning at 5 a.m., and all of us would get together in the living room, light a couple of candles, and do pledge service.

Joe: As a kid, being dragged out of bed at 5 a.m. is not a pleasant memory. But it's amazing how time changes things. I'm just always moved, even right now, that I grew up in a family that prayed for me and prayed that my family would be together, loving each other, and have a purpose, and inviting God in. I felt God watching me my whole life, and I wonder if it wasn't because my parents prayed for us. So I have this image of pledge service that I hold on to to symbolize where I come from and who I am.

Joe: I've told some people that story, and they're like, "Oh, I hated it." But my dad and mom actually tried to make it fun, because they knew the kids hated it. They would bring treats, and we'd have a little cake, and we'd make it like a little party.

Hosts: Oh, wow. I wish that was my experience. Your parents did it right.

Joe: They made a party, so we got and did our prayer and pledge. I just love pledging, and it's refreshing — a sense of who you are and what you're here on earth to do. I have a very fond memory of that. To me, that sums it up more than any other particular memory.

Hosts: Can you describe pledge service?

Joe: 5 a.m. in the old days. My memory might even be wrong, so full disclaimer — I'm not claiming I have a perfectly accurate memory. But I remember that we would all gather as a family. We would line up and face the altar of our living room, a little fireplace, and above it were candles, a picture of Reverend and Mrs. Moon, who we affectionately call True Parents, and a picture of Jesus. We always had Jesus there, right there in the middle. We would then bow to the altar, as we felt they were God's representatives, bringing us the word, bringing us God's love through their teachings and life and example.

Joe: That bow comes from the Korean expression of respect culturally. It's a bit of a surprise to a Western person such as myself. Little things like that have stuck with me too. What kid growing up in regular suburbia, next to a Walmart and a field of cows, which I grew up in, was actually in their living room on Sunday mornings bowing in the Korean tradition to Jesus?

Hosts: As a half-Korean person, I can affirm that it's a very common cultural practice to bow to your elders, to bow out of respect. It's a sign of respect.

Joe: I think it's beautiful. I think all cultures have something to offer that's beautiful to hold on to. But the other side of that coin is that I think all cultures have something to leave behind as well, because every culture has been developed in a not-so-perfect world. After the bow, we would read down these eight points of basically a pledge that we would read in unison. At one point it was in Korean. We made a competition of who could memorize it first in our family.

Hosts: That's hilarious.

Joe: Then it was English. You're pledging to be a family centered on true love. You're pledging to grow spiritually, to become this kind of developed champion of the heart. You've developed different realms of your heart. And every week, you're pledging to go on that inner journey of the soul and the heart. If you really think about it, that's kind of deep for a seven-year-old kid. The more I teach and write worship songs, the more I think about that and go, whoa, that was something.

Joe: After we read the pledge, I believe we did a prayer. Maybe my mom and dad would pray, and there might have been a little more to it. But then I just remember the cake and the party. We would do a big breakfast. My dad's one meal he could cook was breakfast. He'd make waffles, or gravy and biscuits because he's Southern. We would look forward to that. It was like, "Okay, is pledge over yet? Can we eat?" But that memory of being together as a family — my sister and I were reflecting on this, and we really appreciate that we were a spiritual family together. Despite everything you think about it at the time — "Oh, it's too early, this is boring, I don't get it, this is over my head" — it's a fond memory now as adults.

Joe: That's one of the traditions or rituals that I would want to keep for my family. I would love for my daughter to grow up and later in her adult life have these distant memories of, "Wow, Dad and Mom were really praying over me." I want her to have that. That's one thing I've been honing in on quite a bit.

Hosts: How old are your children?

Joe: I only have one daughter. Her name is Alexandra, and she's three and a half.

Hosts: That's a cute age. That's a great age.

Joe: She's getting old and getting witty and speaking with us. It's fun.

Hosts: So you talked about passing on traditions to her. She's still quite young, but are there traditions that you already practice with her?

Joe: Just some small ones. I wanted her to know about Jesus and God and True Parents — Reverend Moon, Mrs. Moon. I want her to know what I can testify they've done for my life. That's a way I can see passing it on without saying, "You better do this, or you should do this, or else you're going straight to the bottom of hell," or some craziness like that. Just know your dad feels he really owes his life to God and Jesus and True Parents because of what they did and what they taught me. Just know that. I'm hoping that helps.

Joe: We pray before we eat, and that was a conscious decision. It's weird for me, because for many years I didn't pray before a meal. In full honesty, I just feel praying is awkward. It feels awkward to pray out loud anywhere. I've decided mentally to lean into that discomfort and just do it, because I want my daughter to have some visible expressions she can recall later in life that we were thinking about God. If you don't pray out loud, how does she know we're ever thinking about God? So I've decided we're going to pray at mealtime, even if it's awkward or I don't feel like doing it. And the other one is, I really want to bring back a weekly pledge or something like that. We're probably going to institute that fairly soon.

Joe: At Christmastime, I put a little picture in front of her on her snack table, and I explained who Jesus was. She was two and a half, almost three at Christmas. How do you explain Jesus to a two-year-old? But the inspiration kind of hit me, and my wife and I were sitting there, and I said, "Alex, this is Jesus," and she says, "Jesus." I said, "Jesus is the man who loved the world the most. He had the most love in his heart out of any person that ever lived." And then I started crying. I was like, this is intense.

Hosts: That's beautiful, though. That's so beautiful to just express your heart so honestly in front of your kids, to let them see that raw emotion.

Joe: I was like, wow, what's going on? I'm turning into a holy roller here. I'm crying.

Hosts: But your daughter will keep those memories, for sure — maybe not from two and a half, but keep having them.

Joe: In my family, we always sing Happy Birthday to Jesus on Christmas, so that's another little thing. To answer this question — the long-winded answer of traditions — that's something I'd like to do. Every year, we sing Happy Birthday to Jesus, though I'm pretty convinced that December 25th is most likely not his actual birthday. But it's just whatever.

Hosts: I think he gets the sentiment.

Joe: I would feel okay if people got my birthday wrong but sincerely sang Happy Birthday to me. So that's okay.

Hosts: It sounds like your family had a really profound impact on what you're trying to pass on to your own kids. In your intro, we talked about how your ambition in life was to be a musician. You moved to New York City, were living the dream, and had taken a step back from being directly involved in the church. Can you talk a bit about that time and what brought you back?

Joe: I was a pretty fiery — still have that side of me somewhere — but I was a pretty feisty teenager. A rebel without a cause kind of thing. In my teenage years, I felt that the church groups I was around were not my speed. I just didn't feel very included. I have a particular memory that makes me feel a little, ugh — I kind of found out through the grapevine that at some small group or youth camp, there was a lot of discussion about me, but I wasn't there. Everybody was assessing or critiquing that I wasn't spiritual enough, or whatever it was. I don't remember the details so much, but I remember feeling like, this sucks, I'm not in this group.

Joe: I was actually very separatist. I was very like, "I'm getting out of here." Not that I thought I was less spiritual, but I was thinking, "I don't want to be in this social club." Music was a social circle all by itself, so music kind of saved me in a way. A lot of people, when they go away from their religious upbringing, where do they go to? Hang out in the back alleys at clubs and make fake IDs? Where do you go after you've left the goody-two-shoe club? For me, I went over to, "Well, I'm just going to be the best musician I can be." And then I found an entire world of people that surrounded me, and it gave me an identity. It gives you a place in the world. "Who am I? I'm a musician, and I have a role." That kind of saved me in a sense. My music family was kind of like my new family.

Joe: At one point it was so bad. I was actually blessed at a very young age. Again, I was kind of a rebel. My parents didn't necessarily think it was a great idea, but I was like, "I'm going to do this."

Hosts: Joe, when you say blessed, do you mean blessed in marriage?

Joe: Yeah, Blessed in marriage. Sorry, thanks for clarifying. I went to a Blessing ceremony while still a teenager, and I was like, "Well, take me. I'm an adult. I can do it." I moved over to New York City and gave it my best shot. Coming off the heels of that relationship not working — that was a dark time. I could barely pay rent, and I didn't know what I was doing. I think I got fired from Starbucks right when I broke my Blessing. I was just like, "Gosh, I am a loser. This is not working." Then I remember some musicians in bands I was with helping pay my rent or buying me groceries. So I had a little family in this music world, and that was really sweet.

Joe: I should make an asterisk here, though. This whole time, even when I moved to New York, where did I live? I lived in a church center, because I didn't know anybody in New York. In my mind, I was like, "Okay, I don't like the California kids so much right now" — I hope they don't take offense if any of them are listening. Back then, I didn't like these folks too much. But I went to New York thinking this is a different group. I went to the Bronx — a pretty interesting, textured and gritty area of the world. I stayed with the church center there, and they really took me in and cared for me. I have very fond memories of that church center. So there I was, doing church services, playing music at their services.

Joe: Where it all came back was — there was a national music ministry that had started from a change of leadership in our church, which I was not aware of. My parents called me up and said, "Hey, Joe, the new church ministry is really music-centric. Maybe you could go in there and play for them." I was like, "Nah, I'm too busy." At that time, I had a middle-school teaching job, teaching music at a private school, and I was touring with somebody. I was way too busy. Then they kind of convinced me to just give it a try. "We just want you to see one church service." Long story short, I saw one service and thought, wow, it's pretty impressive.

Joe: So I went to one of my dear friends, Reverend Joshua Cotter, who some listeners may know, and I said, "Hey, Josh, maybe I can sub into the band when somebody calls out sick." That didn't last very long. All of a sudden, just stepping in for one time, they were like, "You should come back every week." It slowly trickled. I felt that ministry at that time — those of us who are familiar might think there was a lot of good and maybe some turmoil that came from after it closed up. But I felt that ministry did a lot for me, because it felt like a place where the arms were opened up a little wider, like there was a place to be welcomed back. I think the church in the '80s and '90s wasn't as open to that feeling of welcoming back someone, even if they had previously ventured off.

Joe: I was like, "Gosh, I'm still not really a churchy guy, but I'll play the music if I'm helping a little bit." Eventually everybody just won me over — everything that was going on and the people. I was so impressed with all the people: David Eaton, Jaga Gavin, Dave Hunter, Heather Thalheimer, all these great people I was working with. And getting to know In Jin Nim and others was — wow, that was kind of the moment for me of, "Okay, I guess I really am this. I just had some bad years."

Hosts: What was it about the people you were working with and relating with that won you over?

Joe: Good question. I guess it's the feeling of acceptance and grace. I'm going to give a talk later tonight about this, because grace is something that is built really deeply into Christian thought. But I don't know if in my upbringing, in our church, we harped on that so much. It was more like, "Don't mess up, because you're supposed to be the manifestation of this pure lineage and pure greatness that God's been hoping for for a long time, so don't mess it up, please." I don't know if any of us got the "please" — that's a nice way of putting it. It was a mandate. But I don't blame the parents, because the pressure was coming all the way from up above them. It was a serious time. The evolution that changed for me was noticing, "Oh, I think our movement has now balanced in grace." It's not just urgency. It's not just the pressure of the providence. It's also grace. And we need to have both.

Hosts: That's a powerful point. We have this tendency to think of anything that takes time for us to grow — which is ironic, because our entire philosophy is about growing your heart, growing your spirit, that you need the hundred years on earth to battle it out with yourself and become this perfected-in-heart person. But how we grew up, there was no room for failure. And what is failure? Now we're evaluating that and taking a step back, saying no, failure is actually part of the process. It's okay. You will have stumbling blocks. There will be things that happen to you that you have no control over, especially other people.

Joe: That reminds me — as I was learning how to be a preacher, I started reaching out to mentors. I've heard some amazing quotes from Reverend Moon that I'd never heard before. One of them was: Reverend Moon has a leaders' meeting, and he asks the crowd, "Who here is making mistakes?" No one raises their hand, because they're like, "No, I don't want my head chopped off." It's a setup. No one answers. Then he said, "Either you're lying, or you're not trying hard enough." He followed it up by saying, "You should be making at least 10 mistakes a day." That didn't get passed on to our parents — that when we say "don't fail," we mean something that doesn't mean just don't make mistakes or don't slip up. That was a key difference. When I started learning this, I retroactively realized, okay, the way we were taught — and it reminds me of that great quote, I don't know who said it, it might be Richard Nixon: "A man is not finished when he is defeated. A man is finished when he quits." I love that.

Hosts: It's interesting too — Sungmi and I talk at length about this just casually all the time. Even the way our movement came out of post-war Korea, by these men who did military service — structurally, there's so much military influence and manly madness. That whole "don't fail," victory and smash Satan and all that. But for me at least, the essence of Divine Principle and what we teach, and even Reverend Moon and the life that he lived, is about the love of God. How can you not experience grace or take that into consideration when you really experience that love?

Joe: Our movement is so new. I think people forget that.

Hosts: Totally. We're in our infancy. We haven't had hundreds or thousands of years to develop and tweak things.

Joe: Yeah, it's easy to get a little overly critical of the ways the movement didn't nail it. But those were big for me — the grace thing and redefining what failure is. Those were big moments. Those things have really become more articulate in just my recent years now. That wasn't really going through my mind at 25 years old.

Hosts: You pastored a Unification Church community in Florida along with your wife. You talk about developing this deeper heart. You had this seed planted as a kid of saying Happy Birthday to Jesus and having this personal connection with Jesus, and with True Parents to some degree. But during pastoring, something clicked for you. Something deepened. Can you talk a bit about that?

Joe: That was serious for me. I started pastoring with my wife as just an attempt to help out the local community — do it for a year, if we can help bridge the little gap where they don't have a leader. Then all of a sudden, it's like, "Hey, it's Easter Sunday next week. What are you going to say, Pastor Joe?" I was like, "Oh, crap." There's all this pressure. People are like, "I'm bringing my whole family from out there, guests, people that don't know the movement." All of a sudden, I see grandmas and aunts and cousins in the room, and I'm like, I have to represent what we teach about Easter.

Joe: I was crapping myself, and I thought, "I've got to dig in." I really wanted to write sermons that were meaningful and felt substantial. I didn't want to just say a reiteration of a theological point. I learned this little mechanism as a songwriter. One of my songwriting mentors told me: when you're writing a song, always chase the goosebumps. It means if you're writing something and you don't feel the goosebumps, keep at it, tweak it, change it. Maybe it could be better, and you'll know when you're there when you get that tingle. I was taking that same approach to sermon writing. "Okay, God is love, and this and this — but if I wasn't feeling the goosebumps, I pushed myself harder to figure out what in this gives me the goosebumps." That approach really revealed so many things about our teaching that I didn't realize were there. The profound nature of the teaching really came alive for me.

Joe: All of a sudden, I just felt random obsession with reading the New Testament. I was reading the New Testament every single day — one in the morning, two in the morning, all night, just reading, reading, reading. I was really digging into trying to connect to Jesus. I don't know why I had that inclination. But that just brings to life everything we teach. If you do that for a little while, and then come back to what Unification Thought and Divine Principle and Unificationism is about, it was blowing my mind. I was like, "Holy crow, nothing we teach is misaligned from Jesus. It's absolutely a continuation in every way from what Jesus was working for, teaching about, trying to accomplish, everything."

Joe: I just started to make this realization. We're not Christianity lite. We're not, "Oh, we're a little bit Christian, but we're a little…" — you know this struggle, because I have the struggle. To this day, I have this struggle. How do you define ourselves? We're not, "Oh, we're a little bit Christian, but actually kind of Korean, Oriental." It's like a philosophy. A worldview. A lifestyle. A peace movement. What is it? New elements of this definition came to life. I'm like, "Dude, we're like super Christians, basically." We're not left of center. We're not Christian lite. We're like Christian concentrate. More Christian than Christian. Super Jesus on steroids. It sounds very blasphemous, but you know what I mean.

Joe: I love Christians. I think one of my missions in life is to connect to all Christians. But there's gaps in the New Testament. What is he praying about in the Garden of Gethsemane? That question is never answered. For those who may not be familiar with the story — he's asking God to let the way of the cross pass from him. He's addressing a different, alternate destiny. What the heck is he doing that for? If you believe in mainline Christianity — that Jesus existed before time did, he's absolutely one with God because he is God — why is he praying for a different destiny?

Joe: I don't want to harp on Christianity with a critical eye. I love what Christianity has done for this world in the last 2,000 years. It's been incredible. We'd be in a dark age without Christianity and without Christians and without Jesus. But that question is so key and central to what we teach. When you study the Divine Principle, it kind of shares: there's a primary destiny that God wants, and there's a secondary, consequential destiny. If the people don't believe and don't have faith, there's a consequential, second destiny of the cross. Jesus was actually addressing God and saying, "God, will you please let me try a little longer to fulfill the primary destiny?"

Joe: One of my mentors says, "See, if you really want to pray and dig into this, where you're going to find Reverend Moon is kneeling down next to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane." Nobody understood. If you think about this Garden of Gethsemane thing, it blows my mind. All the martyrs, all the saints, all the preachers, all the missionaries and pioneers throughout history — no one understood this Garden of Gethsemane prayer until one man, Reverend Moon. I view our teaching as this tunnel or window into that garden, to really sympathize and put our arms around Jesus and say, "We will help you complete and get that destiny fulfilled." That's a true partnership with God.

Hosts: That's so beautiful. It's interesting, because hearing you talk about really digging deep into trying to understand who Jesus was, and the impact of that on your faith — it's really fascinating to me, because I think as unificationists, we often kind of think, "Oh, we already know better than Christians," or "We already have a leveled-up truth," this kind of presumptuous standpoint. I'm sure some of that comes from being a faith that comes out of East Asia, where there's not a strong Christian foundation. So it's hard to relate. And yet hearing you talk about this journey you've been walking, it's like the path to the heart of it — really feeling it, like you were saying with the goosebumps — has brought it to life in a totally different way for you.

Joe: That's how I see us. Not as leveled up — "Well, we're better because we're theologically more." Because, remember, this is such an important point we have to insert before it can be misconstrued: you can have a lesser doctrine but live it more fully, and you will go to a much better place spiritually than somebody with a much superior doctrine who does not live it. The doctrine doesn't do it for you. I want to use the doctrine to lift me up and motivate me to do better and be a better person. I think our teaching lifts Jesus up so high.

Joe: That consequential destiny, the cross — that's not a failure, because it's simply a second providence. It's a second plan that God put in place. There's evidence of that in the Bible, that he was warning about it: "Look, if there's no faith, this other thing's going to happen." Satan wanted to use the cross as a way to not just capture Jesus's body — he wanted it to be so humiliating, so deeply painful, in the sense of betrayal by his own people, his own disciples, that Satan was hoping if he could betray Jesus and hurt Jesus so hard, Jesus himself would fall off the path of perfection, would hold some kind of grudge, some resentment, some pain in his heart. That's what Satan was really after. He was after the physical body, but he wanted to capture Jesus's mind and heart.

Joe: The incredible thing is Jesus went through that path and did not budge. That was my Easter sermon. I said Jesus is the most stubborn man in human history, because he refused to let hatred into his heart. Satan was absolutely shocked when Jesus died a perfected man. That was a victory, not a failure. That was a victory, which is what allowed Jesus to come back resurrected. Satan had no idea that you're going to resurrect and spiritually walk around and inspire everyone — that was not part of Satan's plan. So that was a victory. We have to remember Jesus that way. That's the truth of it. When I look at that, I'm so honored and privileged to be a person that can follow Jesus, but with the teachings of Reverend Moon to augment it and make the Bible perfectly clear. I'm so lucky. This is amazing.

Hosts: It's sad that we have this reputation from some of the Christian community that we think Jesus failed. That's a pretty common criticism of our theology.

Joe: Jesus failing would have been him running away from the cross. God was saying, "Sorry, plan A is over. You have to do plan B." Jesus could have run away. We have fugitives, right? He was a carpenter — he'd be pretty useful somewhere else. He could have just gone off to Siberia or China or wherever, lived his life, and come back in 40 years, and nobody would recognize him. That would have been a failure. Jesus walked into the humiliation and pain of the cross willingly and lovingly. That was not a failure in my book. That's the victory.

Hosts: I think that's an important point to emphasize. Someone else put it to me like this: we don't think Jesus failed; we love Jesus the most, because we really understand what he did. We understand the sacrifice and the heart it took for him and the conviction he had to have to make the choice. I'll say that with a caveat — that's when we take the time to really connect deep. Because there are definitely those out there who haven't yet discovered that in a more visceral kind of way, really feeling it.

Joe: I would articulate it that we can love Jesus so incredibly much from a Christian standpoint — to the point where you're just nothing but Jesus all the time. But that love stays in the realm of a child being grateful for what the parent did. There is one day that must come when the child has to grow up and become a parent themselves — become somebody who says, "Thank you so much for what you did to raise me. I'm going to take it from here. I'll take the torch and hold it with you, and I'll carry it forward down the field." It's not about more love. It's about a different kind of love — the kind that says, "I want to grow up and be like you, and actually be a parent."

Joe: There's really not a parental feeling in the Christian tradition. Loving Jesus is more like a child: "You saved me. You liberated me." It's very powerful, and it should never be minimized. But at some point, I think this idea that Reverend Moon brings forward transforms that gratefulness to other feelings — determination, "let me be your partner." I might not be up to your standard, but it's that feeling of maturing and taking ownership of this world and yourself and everything else.

Hosts: I really love that about our community — that the people who are really committed to what we believe feel this deep sense of seeing God look at the world and seeing his children suffering. Like, as a parent, how can you not suffer knowing that your children are going through so much? And of course, that doesn't mean God's not trying to do everything possible to help them in every way. But to see that suffering is so painful. And yet for us as a community to stand up together, saying, "Let me comfort you" — taking that gratitude to the next level of, "I want to comfort you because of everything you've done for me." I love that about our community.

Joe: I was just thinking the other day — it almost lifts God up higher. I mean, how can you get higher than God? But it almost lifts God up higher, because he's no longer, "Oh, he's got the plan figured out, and he really loves you." "Well, then why is there suffering?" "We don't know, but he does love you, and he does have a plan. Just believe." Wait — is he waiting around? Why did he wait around 4,000 years to send Jesus? Just send Jesus right away. Come on. What's he doing? When you see through the Principle that there was a reason Jesus came as absolutely soon as God could possibly send it — and Reverend Moon says God's love is a straight line; it goes in the absolute, you waste no time — then you realize God is a suffering God. He's not patiently just waiting the providence out. He's desperately searching for his children every day with the urgency of a parent who's lost his child. That amplifies the love of God for me.

Hosts: You're a parent now, and your perspective has shifted, having a young daughter and raising her. How has that shifted your spiritual journey, becoming a husband and a father?

Joe: Oh, man. Somebody said recently — I think it was Jordan Peterson — "You're not really an adult till you have kids." And I'm like, yeah, it's kind of true. Once you feel the weight of, "Oh, crap, I'm responsible for this person." It has taught me so much about what I think about God. There's a contentious point about grace in Christian circles too: "Well, if God really loves me, then I can do whatever I want, and he'll forgive me." "Well, you're being judgmental. Don't judge me, because God's not judging me, because I am good the way I am, because God is love." It's kind of a gotcha in Christian theology — that's where secular culture pokes at the Achilles heel. "Well, God is love, so you can't judge me. I'm beautiful and great the way I am."

Joe: What I realized as a parent is, of course I love my daughter exactly as she is as a three-year-old. I wouldn't change anything about her, even if she has an accident and it's a big mess in the restroom at Target, or if she has a fit and she's rolling around on the floor of the school. I still love her one thousand percent exactly for who she is, where she's at now. But I would not want her to stay that way. I'm hoping and yearning for the day she can keep growing into something more and better. It doesn't mean I don't love her now. It just means I want her to continue on the growth path. And I want her to continue on the growth path not because I'm sitting up here with my arms folded waiting for her to pass the test of life. I want her to grow because I want her to experience the joy of life.

Joe: There was a time, as you guys probably know, when your kid says nothing but "no, no, no, no, no." It's like, okay, I love you, little girl, exactly for where you're at, even when you say no — but please do not stay this way. Not only because I will go nuts and lose my mind — that's irrelevant. The real reason is, you won't be able to hold down a relationship. You won't be able to get a job. You won't be able to partner with a team, travel the world, fall in love. I want you to experience this world. I want you to visit Chile and Mount Everest and Japan, and to fall in love and have kids and experience all there is in this life. You won't get it if you stay as this two-year-old. I want you to grow so that you feel the joy and fullness of life. That is why God encourages us to grow — because there's something amazing on the other side of that growth that we're missing out on. That's the heart of, "Yes, I love you for exactly where you're at, but keep growing, please. It's going to be amazing." When that clicked in for me, it was only because I was a parent.

Hosts: My dad once said — I mean, he's one of the few people who found teenage girls delightful. I don't know what's wrong with him. He just enjoys extremely challenging situations. He grew up with very aggressive — they were four boys, no girls in the family, kind of tough, aggressive, macho brothers. For him, all this girliness, the giggling, the laughter, was just so delightful that he just enjoyed it. Looking at it as an adult, I cringe when I think of those memories. "Oh, my gosh, I was so immature. How could you ever enjoy?" He's like, "No, I just loved seeing you the way you were, enjoying every minute of where you're at. But I will admit that relating with you as an adult is so much more enjoyable and easier, because you come out — it's compounded — all those experiences." From my perspective, it's like, "Oh, no, that must be terrible for you." And he's like, "No, it was a joy to watch you grow up and to see you get to the next level and come to these realizations."

Joe: Yeah, this is what was blowing my mind as a pastor — that you can continue to understand more and more about God through this lens of parentism. He is a parent, and he's going through everything a parent goes through. He feels like a parent. Then you can start learning about God through your own journey as a parent. That's pretty mind-blowing.

Hosts: Sometimes I think of humanity — what level of infancy are we still in? Like, he looks at humanity collectively as a child. What age are we at?

Joe: I hope we're at least 12 years old. I hope we hit puberty or something.

Hosts: I hope we've gone past the "no, no, no." Even what you were describing, Joe — I was talking to my dad about the same point. What was it that appealed to him when he met the movement? It was exactly what you were describing. He grew up Catholic, and it was like, "You can never know the almighty Lord, because even though he's our Heavenly Father, he's the Alpha and Omega and all the way over there, and we are these lowly sinners. You'll just never know him fully." And yet this concept of hearing the Divine Principle talking about God having feelings — grieving, suffering the pain and also the joy in creation — it was exactly those things that really attracted him to the movement.

Joe: I guess I'm going to be a Bible salesman one day, because all of this is not anti-Bible. "Oh well, that's what Christians used to think, but here we've got a better." No — actually, in the Bible, it says, "Back then we see things through a glass darkly," meaning we don't really understand; it's faded. But one day it will be face to face. One day it'll be clear, like looking in a mirror. So all we're saying is, that time is now. We can understand God clearly.

Hosts: I have a question going back on your spiritual journey. You touched on really being welcomed into the music ministry. Those of us in the movement know there was an abrupt closure of that ministry, and things came to a grinding halt. Unfortunately, a lot of people were deeply hurt from what happened. How did you make that transition, from the music ministry to ending up accidentally stepping into this pastor role? Because there were so many people that were deeply hurt, and rightly so. What was that transition like for you?

Joe: That's a good question, because I've met so many people that have different stories. "How are you going to rebound?" My rebound was to go back to focusing on career. "Okay, well, I guess there's no place here." But I did have a lot of friendships, and I really identified as, "Wow, I am totally a unificationist person. There's no doubt in my mind now." That solidified it. Too bad there's no ministry anymore. So I was already very different. Then I was very fortunate to be re — I got Blessed in marriage to my wife of 10 years now.

Hosts: Congrats.

Joe: Thank you. We came out of that situation together, thinking, "Okay, we have a Blessing to work on. I'm just going to pursue the music career more." So I moved down to Florida to open a music studio. Long story short, it really failed. It basically closed up. My business partner had a momentary, total mental panic, a mental breakdown. I couldn't find clients, and I couldn't find people to take our songs and place them on people's albums. I was just getting chewed up by the music industry — our butts handed to us. Lost all my money. I dumped a lot of money into a studio. It was total failure.

Joe: Toward the end of that failure, when we moved to Florida — you know, we just pick a neighborhood on the map, like total tourists, don't know anything from anything. I moved into this house, and when I'm driving up to the house to see it, it's literally on the same street, pretty much, as the family church in South Florida. I was like, "No, I'm trying to get away from this. Why are they here?" I wasn't even sure how they felt about me, because some people could recognize me at that stage, because I'd just been on this national stage.

Joe: For the first six months of living in Florida, I would drive by the church every single day, because it was on the way out of the neighborhood. It was almost God saying, "You can't escape your destiny." Whenever I saw people in the parking lot or cars in the parking lot of the church, I turned my head and ducked, because I didn't want anyone to see me. I was like, "I don't know if they'll recognize me. I don't know how they feel." One day I walk in there, and there's a second-gen band playing. I thought, "That's kind of rare — a good second-gen band with some good singers in here." All the way in Florida, what the heck? So then I started attending church service to play bass for them.

Joe: As a bass player just there every week — and then the pastorship opened up. We didn't have a pastor anymore. They had a wonderful sister, Simone Doroski, to pastor there for a couple of years, and she was our good friend. She was kind of on the side telling me and Keishu, "You guys should be the next pastor." Keishu and I were like, "No, we're not pastoral. I'm not that type of person. I stay up till four in the morning. This is weird. I just can't do it."

Joe: Long story short, my wife took a trip to Alaska. I think she was visiting some families up there. She had a hike on a mountain. This is classic spiritual story.

Hosts: There's always a mountain.

Joe: Moses with the tablet. She came down from the mountain, called me at the foot of the mountain and said, "Joe, I think we should do the pastorship." I said, "Sure. Okay." I was ready to roll with it. The whole community thought, "This is exciting, because we can't wait for Keishu to be our pastor. Joe's the guy, he's the musician, he'll play the music, he'll be the bass player." I was going to be the bass player, and Keishu was going to be the pastor for a little while, because she's so qualified. She's worked at eBay and the United Nations and all these things. She's very professional. I'm sure everyone was looking forward to that.

Joe: Then I gave a couple of sermons right at the top of it, and I just had so much fun. Everybody seemed to like it. So I just kept doing it. I just kind of became the pastor.

Hosts: We really pulled a fast one on them.

Joe: I was having these moments, about a year or two into it, thinking, "God, what are you doing with my life? All of a sudden I'm really getting into preaching and stuff, and my music career just folded up on me — failure on the floor." I was really giving God what Reverend Moon might call a showdown prayer. "Why are you taking the last 20 years of my effort and practice and career and dumping it down the tubes? And now you're inspiring me to be all minister guy. What do you want me to do with that? Are you asking me to put music on the altar?" That's what I was wondering. I came to a place in my heart where I just gave it to God. I said, "If you want me to quit music, I'll quit." That was a big deal, because I had done nothing but music my whole life.

Joe: God's answer — he said, "Do both." So I was like, "Oh, I get it." Shortly after that, I realized there's a guy I kind of use as my role model: John Wesley, founder of the Methodist movement. I started reading about him, and I realized John Wesley wrote worship songs and traveled the world preaching. I was like, "That's me. I'm going to go around." I was confused — "Who's my role model? Who do I look up to? What am I now?" I decided I'll be like a John Wesley. I found out later that my grandfather was named Wesley, because they were Methodist. He's there. Maybe my grandfather's around me. I didn't know this till this year, but he was a youth pastor, my grandfather, very well loved, a youth pastor with hundreds — anyway. So I'm like, it's in the DNA.

Joe: I realized I'm going to be John Wesley light. I'm going to go around and preach the word, and I'm going to write songs — but I don't want to write another crappy pop song ever again. I'm not going to write a song for some industry purpose. I want to write songs that move people's heart and open them to feel God better. That's my new direction. I was ready to tell God, "Yeah, you can kill my music right now, if you're really telling me to do this," but he gave me a little way out. He was very clear: John Wesley.

Hosts: For all our listeners, where can they find your music?

Joe: Good question. I've written a bunch of worship songs. I probably have an album's worth of worship songs ready to go. I'm going to be releasing them on a little platform called the Living Room Ministry, which I just created. We already have the website picked out — TheLivingRoomMinistry.com. I want that site to be where I can put those messages and the songs and just put them out in tandem, in parallel. I think that would be a really fun and creative exercise for me.

Hosts: I'm super excited to hear your stuff. Music has always been really special for me, too, because it's all about the heart, right? The feeling and the experience. One of my biggest struggles most recently — the moment of breakthrough came when I turned on the top Christian hits on Apple Music. I love Christian music for that, because it's uplifting and inspiring. The thing that helped me break through with what I was going through was, "Oh my God, yes — I remember that God loves me so much, and I love God. I totally trust God. I don't trust the situation. I don't know what's going on here." That experience through the music is what brought me back. I'm really keen to hear your music.

Joe: Testimonies like that really pump me up, because it gives me a purpose. There's a real purpose to put out good, God-centered music. That's awesome. There's a niche in the market too. I'm not as gung-ho about Christian music. Yeah, I don't…

Hosts: Just so you know, I get it. I love country too. I love country music.

Joe: I grew up in the South. I tried to resist it.

Hosts: There's some really good — especially any Randy Travis fans out there. I had a major crush on him when I was a little kid. There was something about that voice. I've told my husband this. He's aware. He wasn't always talking about God — he talked about relationship stuff — but there's something moving in spiritual music. There is a niche for spiritual people to write music — I don't want to call it just unificationist perspective on spirituality and music. When I discovered that Marcus Mumford is a Christian, it helped me understand their music better. I was like, "There's something deep here. Is it just me? Are they religious?" Then I looked it up and was like, "Oh, that's why I resonate so deeply with it."

Hosts: Joe, who are some of the artists that inspire you? What style of music are you close to in how you perform?

Joe: So, the music I want to write — I know I'm a big dreamer, and I shoot really high, so I might be setting myself up for a massive flop. But there's a writing trick. I'll sit down and be like, "I don't know what to write." Then there's a little exercise: "What do I wish there was more of?" "You know what would be cool? If Coldplay found Jesus or True Parents, and then they wrote their best album ever." If that could happen — I mean, I'm so ridiculous. But that's where I start creatively. Then I'm thinking, "Wait a second, I can write that."

Joe: In my mind, music that's like an anthem — Bruce Springsteen, Coldplay — that's what juices me up, when you get 80,000 people singing together. That gives me the goosebumps right now. Anthemic music, anthem music for thousands of people to sing — that's what I'm pumped about. The other thing I'm really drawn towards is innocence and sweetness. Somebody else asked me, "Have you noticed that your music has changed, or your taste in music has changed?" The answer that popped out of my mind was so revelatory, because of how you say it and then you realize it — "I want to bring back innocence and sweetness into the world through music." It's just so hard to find. Innocence and sweetness, Coldplay, Bruce Springsteen, anthem, smash it together. You're talking to a creative here, so you're going to get some ridiculousness.

Hosts: That's where creativity is amazing. You take these really ambitious goals. It is the expression of the heart, right, and the human experience. Recently I've been on a huge Lauren Daigle kick. I love her. Her stuff just hits so deep for me when I listen. I have a penchant for tragic music, which is my Korean side totally. All the Korean songs that our movement has introduced to us and our community — it's all the really tragic songs and longing in the heart. When NSYNC released "Gone" — oh my god, it was over for me. That was it. That was the song of longing and tragedy. There's a beauty in the tragedy of life.

Joe: I respect that. I think all the spectrums of feelings are good, because the door that opens the heart is a universal door. The same door that opens when you feel sad is the same door that opens when you feel happy. I actually read that from a psychologist who said that's why you'll see, for instance, people crying at a happy thing, like crying at weddings. You're sitting in the pews, and the door to your heart is opening, because you want to feel all the joy and magic of that moment and the happiness for the bride and the groom and the future. But then that door is open, and the thought enters your mind of somebody — maybe grandma — that would have loved this had she lived longer, and the people that are missing. So that same door, then you'll cry.

Joe: I feel like music opens that door. Then you can go 3D with it. The door to feel God's love is that same door. So you have to open the heart. I think music is a tool for that. I want people to feel God, but how can you do that with a closed heart? So music's a tool for that, for sure.

Hosts: I think that's an awesome place to end. Music as a doorway to the heart, to feel God's love. I think we have the title of the episode right there.