🇺🇸Jario Vincenz-Gavin

Hosts: What is a particular memory that sums up your experience of growing up in the church?

Jario: Oh, this is a great question. I listened to 90s music this morning just to get myself in the right zone. I had some Outkast, I had TLC, I had U2 — it was all over. Connecting with my roots. Just thinking back to my childhood growing up in this, of course there are many different things. The neat thing about going to potlucks in my faith community was we'd be eating sushi with spaghetti and hot dogs, kimchi over here and something from South America. I always remember growing up in a culture where everybody was represented, and it just felt so natural. My aunts and uncles were from all different parts of the world. It was a relationship with every culture, every nationality.

Jario: At the beginning of each year, January 1st, we would celebrate what we called God's Day. It was the day that we offered to God — we started our year off thinking about God. I remember going into the church in Washington, D.C., entering raffles and having all these games. One time my brother won this awesome bike. Just these cool memories of being together with so many different people, and visiting other churches, going to different synagogues and temples. That was something my faith always introduced and encouraged us to do — go connect with other people of faith, go find the value in one another. I loved that.

Jario: But one big thing for me, if I was thinking about all the big experiences, was — maybe 2000, 2001 — I joined this program called Pure Love Alliance. Their idea was we needed to have a cultural shift towards honoring marriage, honoring the concept of what we could be if we really value ourselves, value the opposite sex, treat each other like brothers and sisters. It was like 150 young people jumping on buses, traveling around the country. We were doing marches and proclaiming this idea: hey, you're worth waiting for, you are such a valuable person, invest in yourself, grow yourself. We'd have events with break dancing and hip hop dance, doing the theme song for the Michael Jordan movie — Space Jam. Space Jam dances, dramas, plays, all sorts of awesome performances. It really felt like we were presenting a new opportunity for culture — music and video and what we could do with ourselves and how we could treat other people.

Jario: I'm sitting there and I've got people from Europe, I've got people from Japan and Korea, people from South America, people from America. We're all just united by this bigger vision. We'd never met each other before, but we're like best friends, riding in buses, traveling the country. Some places loved us — I remember mayors opening up their towns and feeding us and setting us up in nice hotels, because they were like, wow, this youth group is trying to help America. Other places weren't so excited — they were like, what are they doing out here clogging up our streets? Then we went over to Europe, and as a young kid, 12 or 13 years old, traveling Europe. I remember going on this ferry from England to France, and I ordered a coffee and paid three bucks for it. They gave me this little tiny child's teacup, and I drank this coffee and I don't think I slept the rest of the day. Maybe it was worth it. Having Marmite on my sandwiches, which is not very good, but the British people really love that and they thought we would enjoy it too. And in Germany, going around presenting this idea of what if we could live like brothers and sisters, what if we could really support each other on this journey of life. It's hard enough to be a teenager without all the other confusion. It was such a hopeful time, a time where anything was possible — you could get up on a bus with a bunch of strangers and change the world. That really stuck with me, this idea that we're one family and we're trying to change the world and make a difference in any way that we can.

Hosts: I think I was on that tour. Yeah, definitely loads of fond memories from that experience too. But it's interesting to hear someone else's experience of it.

Jario: There were some incredible times growing up, some big experiences, some wild experiences, things that I wasn't always ready for, but they definitely challenged us and gave me a world of experience by meeting all sorts of people.

Hosts: You said sometimes there were good times but also challenging times growing up in the church. Can you talk about the challenging times?

Jario: Oh, yeah. For me, I always got caught up in this idea — I love the idea of a peaceful world, a better world, that I'm a significant part of God's plan, that I matter, that my choices matter and help other people, that I can make a difference in this world. I love that idea. But growing up, I kind of had two lives sometimes. I wanted to pursue this ideal, but I also really enjoyed having fun like everybody else did, and sometimes I lost myself in that fun. High school was kind of a whirlwind. I'd go to camps and I'd be like, wow, I'm going to come back and tell other people about God and how much God loves them. And I had changed my ways. So in high school, I got into a lot of partying — not just Friday and Saturday night, I could party on a Tuesday night just as well.

Jario: It wasn't such a great time for me developmentally. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed getting together with friends, I enjoyed making the most of life. But that also meant I didn't make the best decisions for my life. I got in fights at school, I got in fights after school, I went out to bonfires and did what happens at a bonfire with high school kids. I really got caught up in that lifestyle. And there was — I could feel a contradiction in myself, of who I wanted to be and who I was being. Later on in my life, I always loved when I'd read from St. Paul, he talks about having this contradiction inside himself, that he wants to do the will of God but he finds himself at war with the members in his own body. I felt that growing up. Life could be so wonderful — I'd had this awesome experience with all these people and I could see what it could be. But I couldn't help getting caught up in the world around me and in that partying lifestyle. It was kind of a mess. I didn't show up to school as often as I probably should have. I wasn't a bad kid; I was respectful when I got in trouble, but I did get in trouble a lot.

Hosts: That's kind of bad kid. The worst kind.

Jario: I get nervous because I see my son — he's the sweetest boy, so respectful, but also a little mischievous, and I see myself in that. I remember the secretaries at the school, I'd be being marched off to the principal's office and they'd say, be nice to him, Mr. Bond. They were always on my side. It was a fun time, but I felt life should be something more. I was coming up to my senior year in high school, and I was finally trying to take my life somewhat serious. I was tired of going back and forth — jumping into this idea that maybe God could be a part of my life, maybe a relationship with God was important, maybe I could pursue something greater. Or maybe I could just be like all my friends at high school. I came to this moment and said, I've got to challenge this, give God a chance, throw myself 100 percent at it and see what works. If it doesn't work, that was also my get-off-the-hook — I can do whatever I want if God doesn't show up in my life. So I was like, I'm going to challenge it all.

Jario: There was a boarding school for youth of the Unification movement that I went to in Texas. I decided to go out there because I needed to find another way and see if this worked out. My motivation there was not academic — it wasn't to graduate high school. I did have to do some work while there, but my motivation was just to figure out the next step in my life. Did I want to commit myself to faith or not? What the instructors really encouraged us to do was what we'd call conditions, or faith practices — practice our faith through different challenges. Things like daily readings of scripture, cold showers to deny my body, fasting a day or three days at the most, to challenge myself and deny my body so that I could really get in touch with my heart, with my emotions, with my spirit, and focus on this relationship with God. I said, okay, I'll try this out. And actually, I'm going to try them all out all the time, because I wanted to figure this out.

Hosts: You went extreme.

Jario: I went extreme. I jumped in. I think I was secretly hoping to get off the hook. So I was like, I'm going to throw it all out there.

Hosts: Testing God. The best way, right? You've got to test God, you've got to lean into your doubts and figure that out.

Jario: I didn't want to wind up at 60 years old and be like, man, I invested my whole life in this and it was all garbage. I didn't want to end my life and look back and say, why didn't I ever question it? So that's where I was at. I'm doing cold showers, I'm reading every day three different kinds of religious texts, I started doing fasting. My first time, I fasted for three days — no food, only drinking water for three days. At the end of this, we're always encouraged: there's a slow process to reintroduce food so you don't get an upset stomach. So I finished the fast, I'm warming up some rice — just a nice light bowl of rice — when some of my friends came in the door with all these hot wings. They came in with all these hot wings and I'm smelling them. They're like, yeah, this is a hot one, this is suicide. And of course, I had to try suicide. The lesson from that is: don't eat spicy things after a fast.

Jario: So it was a lot of fun trying these things out, doing all these conditions. I tried and tried, month after month. The words of God are nice — nice ideas. I thought, oh, that sounds kind of idealistic, but it sounds like a nice idea. So I wasn't turned off by it, but I wasn't really connecting with God as I was hoping. I was doing these fasts and cold showers and different prayers — 21 minutes of prayer every day or whatnot — really trying to dig in. And there wasn't really anything happening for me. So I just kept cruising. I said, I'll give it a year.

Jario: About six months in, one day I'm reading one of our scriptures — this is the Exposition of the Divine Principle. It's kind of a textbook that explains lessons from the Bible and helps us understand how that works in the context of today's world and what God was trying to do. I'm reading this textbook, and one of the parts that it emphasizes is Genesis 1:28, where God is telling Adam and Eve — it's his first instruction. He says, be fruitful, multiply, and have dominion over the earth. That dominion word, I always struggled with. I really did not like the word dominion. I'm thinking, isn't that kind of what got us in this mess in the first place — people dominate creation, they cut down whatever they need to cut down, use up whatever they want to use up, and destroy this planet? Dominion is a gross word. I don't want to control creation. I liked the idea of being fruitful, of growing to maturity. I liked the idea of multiplying, sharing that love. But dominion, I couldn't figure out what this meant.

Jario: I remember that morning I read that, and it just struck me that God loved and believed in us so much that he created this whole beautiful world and was like, now you guys take care of it and make something beautiful. I want to see what you guys are going to create with this world. I remember putting the book down and just being overwhelmed by the love of God and how much trust and faith he had in me. I walked out the door — I was kind of one of the elder people at this school, I was supposed to help out kids, I made lunches for them — but I just disappeared for the day. I walked out the door, grabbed a trash bag, and I'm like, I need to take care of creation. I started walking around the river and I'm picking up trash, just in a conversation with God. And that's how I explain it — it was a conversation. I would say a word, I would express a feeling, and it was like immediately I would get feedback from God. Like, this is how I'm feeling, and God would say, oh, this is what I'm trying to teach you, son, this is what it's about. It was just talk, just give and take. And this was 12 hours — from 10 a.m. till 10 p.m. — I walked around, and I was in this other world.

Jario: I'd pick up a leaf and just stare at this leaf and say, wow, look how beautiful this leaf is, and it's made the same way every time, and the seed makes this tree. I'd go in this hole, like 30 minutes on a leaf. Then I'd go pick up a flower and do the same thing all over again, thinking, wow, God, I can't believe you created this from a seed, and you continue to multiply it, and you put all the directions right in this little thing and it knows what to do. Just blown away by the creation and having this connection with God. I remember that being such a huge moment in my life. I walked in at 10 p.m. as the group was all closing for the night. I just kind of wandered in, and they were like, where did this guy come from? I was in a different world. It was like my partying days, but on a whole different level — like this was drugs to the 19th degree, like anything I've ever experienced.

Hosts: That's so interesting. I mean, it really sounds like you had — I don't want to say a religious experience, because that's such a cliché — but it kind of was this really powerful, impactful moment. What I find really interesting is that a lot of people want that kind of experience. We're like, yeah, I would love something like that to happen to me. But it seems like you really put the work in beforehand to show how serious you were, that you really wanted to pursue an understanding, an answer. Even in our faith tradition, the way we talk about conditions — you need a time period, you need a central figure to connect with, to keep that vertical alignment. It sounds to me like all of that hard work that you really put in paid off with this incredibly beautiful, powerful experience. Would you say that's the moment that things really changed for you?

Jario: I think that was an undeniable moment that I can always go back to. It solidifies that God is real, that that was a real conversation. There were things that were revealed to me in that conversation that I didn't think I knew — the answer to this problem, or this relationship that I'd had in the past, or why this had happened to me. It was just so clear, every answer. And I couldn't deny it. There was something real that happened that day. Since then, I've definitely had dips in my faith. I've had moments where I'm like, oh, I'm so tired of this, I tried this. But then I'm like, I know that God is real. I know underneath it all, God really cares about me and really does have my best interest at heart. I know that for a fact, even if there are other things I struggle with and still to this day struggle with. I go back to that moment — that's an anchor point for me.

Hosts: Sometimes I feel like God gives you enough so that you can hang on. Gives you just enough when you're desperate, when you say I can't do any more, I can't stretch anymore, this relationship won't go anywhere. And God's like, here you go, here's my infinite love. Yes, you can, because I'm here, it's within you. I think setting the stage to have those experiences was pivotal for you. And since that time, how would you say you've applied what you got from that experience, and also how you grew up, how your parents explained the Divine Principle, or the values of this church in your daily life? What sticks with you even today? And now you have your own kids — what are you teaching them?

Jario: My parents were always pretty real with me. Their faith was always substantial — they would go visit other churches, they would read with us, they'd study with us. But I didn't ever feel like it was just an in-the-sky kind of faith. It was very grounded in the way that they treated each other. They really made sure that we spent a lot of time with my grandparents, with my cousins, with my uncles and aunts. They really invested in family and in community. Growing up, my dad was often traveling — he did a lot of church mission work, he did kind of public relations for our movement, going to Russia and working with people there, going to North Korea, traveling around a lot and working with a lot of different types of people. But even though his missionary work was very important, he always made a lot of time to invest in us when he came home. If he was out for a few weeks in Russia, he'd come home and it was, dad's going for runs with us every morning. I don't like running, but my dad loves running, so we'd all go running together through the woods and go for big long runs. We'd go out to the mountains, go to the beach. We always would take big vacations up to Minnesota to visit all of our relatives. He made sure that family was a major part — it wasn't like he's just so focused on church that he couldn't be a part of our family.

Hosts: Hold on a second — your dad went to Russia and North Korea in the 90s? Were you guys ever worried about him? Those were not easy times.

Jario: I don't think I was aware. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't even think about that till now. He just made you feel so at home and peaceful when he was home. I remember him bringing home this Russian sweater with some metal name tag thing. That was just part of life — doing mission work and being a part of the world and trying to make things better. That was the example I saw in my parents, and my mom doing Sunday school and helping out wherever she could. I always saw them doing faith, but I always saw them very involved in our family as well. It didn't take them away from us, which I really appreciated. That's something I see in my own relationship with my kids now — I really want my faith modeled in the home just as much as at church. Church is one thing — when we're at our best, we're looking our best, we're acting our best. But I want to make sure I'm also practicing it at home.

Jario: I have kids, and sometimes they do things that I didn't want them to do, and sometimes I respond stronger than their action merits because of whatever — maybe I'm just overwhelmed with something else. I try to make it a point now to go back to my kids after and say, hey, I understand what you did. I'm not saying it was okay, but I want you to understand that I'm also trying to grow through this. We talk about these things. We talk about mistakes. That's one big thing I learned with my kids — we talk through mistakes, because the only way to improve or restore or fix something is when you talk with someone about it. So I give them opportunities. Hey, I see you were really frustrated yesterday and you were flipping out — what's going on? I'm not going to yell at you about your action, but let's talk, because something must be causing this emotion. I've learned to really communicate with the kids, knowing that all of our actions are a result of something going on in our heart, something going on in our emotions. We need to be addressing people at the core and not just addressing the expressions. That's a big thing from my faith upbringing — not Band-Aid solutions, not just saying, hey, stop yelling, but finding out why they're yelling in the first place.

Hosts: I love that — it hits really home for me, and it gives me hope, too. Even with my own kids, I work full time, I have four kids. You come from a big family, right? The fact that your parents could be so involved in the work they felt dedicated to but still really intentional with the time with you guys gives me hope. I've been trying to do this thing I learned from this mommy blogger I follow — just 20 minutes of quality time with one kid during a weeknight. A full-day mommy-daughter date is really hard, kills an entire day, and there's so much going on. But 20 minutes, I can do that. It's the quality, not necessarily the quantity. You could spend every single day with your kids and ignore them, too. So anyway, that's encouraging for me.

Jario: I remember my dad — he worked long hours, he had his own business. My mom was a stay-at-home mom but supported him. Some mornings before school, he'd be like, okay, if you wake up early enough and we get out the door by seven, I'll take you to breakfast. So any kid that woke up on time got to have a nice breakfast at, I don't know, Wendy's or something — French toast sticks, or biscuits and gravy because it was the South. That was really special. Just an hour of his time, but really precious. I usually didn't wake up early enough to go to those, so the couple of times I did were really special. Or after school, if he'd just pick you up and you were the only one and could just spend that little bit of time — that meant the world.

Hosts: Since we're on the topic of childhood and children, and my oldest is almost a teenager, I want to circle back to your high school experience and ask: what do you think it was that was so appealing about the partying, about the experiences you had with your high school friends? A lot of people experience the same thing — people are drawn to it for different reasons, but there is something alluring about it. In your experience, what do you think that was?

Jario: I don't feel like it was something of trying to run away from something. It was following emotions. I enjoy having a good time. When it first started, my friends actually knew I was very against everything. I'd be like, oh, where did that group of people go? And they're like, oh, don't worry, Jario, they'll be back in a second. They covered for each other in front of me because they liked me, but they also liked grabbing a drink. More and more as I was growing up, they'd be like, oh, well, Jario, we're going to do this, but I know you're against it — they would try and hide it from me. At some point I was at a party and I was like, hey, can I try? I guess it was just wanting to be a part of that group. Sometimes you get lost in a big family. I spent a lot of time with my friends and maybe didn't have the clearest of purpose. I played some sports, but I was not very involved in any one sport. I enjoyed them but was definitely no athlete. I didn't have anything that grounded me, that I was really invested in as an alternative. Later on I got into snowboarding, but partying and snowboarding don't go hand in hand. Snowboarding is hard enough as it is.

Jario: That's something I work with my kids on. I've encouraged them to try out different things, but when they find something they like, that's the thing. I don't want to be going to basketball and then baseball and then soccer and then drama. One thing we're learning, we'll invest money into it — you can really make that your thing. The kids really appreciate this — my daughter's a ballerina, and it's her thing, it's become like her world. The girls she dances with, the team, there's a whole culture around it. Having something as an anchor like that, that really brings her pride and joy, also protects her from making — we can say, hey, maybe we don't want to have boyfriends, or maybe we don't want to do drugs or drink, because this is such an important part of your life. There's a clear reason behind it. So we've invested a lot in that and we get involved in it. I love going out to the ballet stuff, or I go to my son's Taekwondo and I sit with him during the whole time and we talk about it, we practice after.

Hosts: I wonder also, as you've been sharing about your journey, you sound like you like to test the boundaries of things. Is there an adrenaline rush from testing those things? Even your experience of saying, okay, God, this is it, show me — you seem like a person who really throws themselves into things. Would you say that's accurate?

Jario: When you were starting to say it, I was like, no, I'm not aggressive like that. But I look at my life and go, yeah. When me and my wife want to try something, we were an adventurous couple. In 2015, we decided to start our own business — we built up a birthday party indoor play place center in Chicago and went all in. My whole thing was, I'm going to tell a bunch of people we're going to do it that way I can't back out. So we threw ourselves in and that was our whole world. Or we decided to do a church plant — starting a new church with a small group of core people. We met with some friends, people that had similar values to us, who wanted to see our faith, which is Unificationism, kind of go out into the world in a new expression, a new way of approaching it. We drafted it all up, thought, what are our core values, what are our core beliefs? And we went out and started this new church. That was a bold move. When I look at things, we've made these big decisions, and I guess it makes life exciting, adventurous. There is that part of me that always likes to jump in.

Hosts: Wasn't your church at one point — the church plant — in a bar or a brewery?

Jario: Yeah. We looked for places to meet and we found this brewery. It was a beautiful building, a nice place — a nice restaurant, really nice food. They had some rooms downstairs that were reserved mostly for bachelor parties or different events, but really nice rooms. We checked it out and they gave us a great deal — coffee and pastries for like a hundred bucks a week. They figured Sunday morning they weren't getting any customers anyway, so they were setting up for lunch, and they'd just have someone throw down some stuff for us and then go up and get lunch ready. It was kind of neat, because my wife would meet someone in the grocery store and they'd be like, well, I don't know if I could get my husband to go into a church, but if he could sit on a bar stool, I could probably do that.

Hosts: Bar-side church. Love it.

Jario: Go to where people are going anyway. God's been a part of all of our life. That was a fun adventure. Then we moved it to our business, to our birthday party venue, which worked out great because the kids could play in the play area while we did church service. We always throw ourselves in. When I think about it, there's a part where Jesus is calling out to Peter, and Peter says, hey, Jesus, you're out in the water, call me to come and I'll come. He steps out there because of his faith, and because of his faith he can walk out there. But the moment he starts doubting it all, he starts to sink. I feel like God's always saying, hey, I'm 100 percent with you and I'll help you with whatever you do, but we also have to step out. We've got to make that effort, because otherwise it's like, oh, God, make everything work, set up everything — and God's like, are you even going to do anything with it? So sometimes we just throw ourselves out there, and it's blown up in our face sometimes. But through those things, I learn so much, I grow so much.

Jario: That's a big thing — in our faith, there's this concept of growth stages. We're not just perfect because we read the scripture and go, oh, I should be good, so I'm good. You read this and it's challenging and uncomfortable, and you're like, I don't know how to act good, I don't know at all how to have a good marriage — I've been having an okay marriage, but I don't know how to do that. We step in and we recognize there's a formation stage — this is a stage where you don't know anything and you're just studying about it, looking at it, thinking about it. Then there's a growth stage when you're actually committing to start working on it and you practice it. With practice, it accepts the idea that there's going to be failure, there's going to be mistakes, you're going to fumble. Sometimes I'm going to say the wrong word to my wife, I'm going to mess up as a parent sometimes. But that doesn't make me a failure — it's just part of the growth process. It's supposed to be there. Then finally we go into our maturity stage — okay, actually, I've learned from my mistakes, I'm better at this, I understand it better now. The funny thing is, once we've mastered that area, then a whole other area of life opens up to us, and we're back at formation. We're like, I know nothing again. You start all over. That's part of our faith, and that's a really cool thing — there's that grace built into it, this challenge to go out and try things you've never done before, because that's the only way you're going to grow. It does help when I have a faith community that supports me and they're like, well, Jario, you're over your head, but here, I can help you.

Hosts: There's this Franciscan monk who wrote this book called Falling Upward, and he talks about the first and the second half of life. What's important about the first half of life from his experience — he was a chaplain and ministered to people in prison, sometimes who had life sentences, and saw these conversions — he said the most important thing is to have a home, quote unquote, to go back to, to push up against, and to have values. So to instill values and some kind of spiritual life in kids — not necessarily that they'll stay exactly in the same faith or the same traditions as you, but they have something to push up against and to test. That's an essential part of life — actually that growth and that stretching beyond your base. But you have to have a base.

Jario: I love that. And that concept of, we have to find out who we are as an individual. I believe God's created each one of us with an individual expression of who he is. We have a unique way to interact with other people, build relationships, to think and behave. We need to identify that. I did youth ministry for several years, and I would see it all the time — kids would grow under their parents, and then there's a point where they have to figure out who they are. We call it rebellion. But really, I think what it is is this need to separate from, oh, there's my parents' faith, this is my parents' way of dealing with the household — and they have to figure it out. I see it even with my parents. My dad grew up Catholic, my mom grew up Lutheran, and at some point they had to step out from that and see what values they associated with, what they wanted to incorporate in their life. It wasn't a rejection necessarily of their mom and dad or their family, but it was a necessary development of figuring out who they were.

Jario: If we can do this in our faith community — give that solid home base — and people are allowed to explore and figure out, this is who I am, this is what makes sense, I'm testing my parents' faith against culture, does it ring true? — but there's a safe place that loves them and supports them that they can come back to when they're ready. I've seen that in our own faith community down here. We have a lot of people that graduate high school, go to college, start a career. When you start a career, you're the bottom rung in your company — you're the guy that has to work all the weekends, you have to do all the trips, you've got to prove yourself because you want to move up. So Sunday morning is not always something they're going to. I've found it's not always a rejection of faith, it's just not in their program at the moment. But if we continue to keep a community where they feel like this is my family, they know they have a safe place to come back to. Then they start moving into marriage and thinking about kids, and naturally they're like, oh yeah, this is my home, this is the place where I want to raise my kids. We've seen a lot of kids come back and choose this faith community because it continued to be that safe place for them. It allowed them to make that journey. Maybe begrudgingly, some parents — I'm terrified of that, I don't want to go through that — but I recognize that I'm going to continue to create that loving space, so that even when my kids need to go through that journey, they'll know that mom and dad are here for them.

Hosts: That's incredible — really investing in a community and creating that kind of safe space for people. You were talking about the growing process involving making mistakes. How do you address the guilt and the shame that come up when people make mistakes, especially in a faith community that talks about the ideal all the time, and ideal families and mature individuals? There's a lot of shoulds — you should do this, you should do that, this is the standard we're trying to achieve. So how do you address the mistakes that people make along the way, especially in light of viewing it as a necessary part of the process?

Jario: I guess it comes back to — Lena and I, we have this motto, that we pursue the ideal while embracing reality. I always feel it's important to put up what we could be: what could life look like, what could my marriage look like, what could my career look like? And put that up there, not to lessen that because we're not measuring up to it yet, but to keep it up there as a goalpost, something I'm working towards. I'm trying to be a better husband — I'm no way a perfect husband, I make mistakes — but I don't take that ideal away from me. Then I look at my reality and I say, this is where I'm at today, this is where I'm going, I've got a long way to go, but I'm going to accept and give grace to that.

Jario: I remember when my son was maybe two or three years old. He loved playing with these magnets — they looked like little rocks, but they were really smooth, metallic magnets. He loved playing with them, but he'd often put one in his mouth. We're like, don't do that, you're going to swallow it. He's like, oh, I'm not going to swallow it. One day he's in the bathtub and he's playing with them, and I'm playing with him, talking with him. I look away, look back, and suddenly one of the magnets is gone and he's looking up at me with tears in his eyes, just freaking out. The first thing going through his mind is, mom and dad have told me a million times. He's not just scared like, did I hurt myself — he's like, I messed up, I knew I wasn't supposed to do this and I messed up. I stopped in that moment and said, Tyler, what's going on? Are you okay? First off, are you okay? What happened? I said, I'm not going to get mad at you. I know you did something maybe you weren't supposed to, but that's okay. I'm not worried about that. I just want to fix this right now.

Jario: I had to call poison control. This is a magnet, so I'm like, what do I do? Tyler, I just need you to be really honest with me so we can figure this out and fix this. I just kept reassuring him: I'm not mad at you, but I want to help you, I want to help you fix this so nothing bad happens. I called up and they said, okay, he swallowed a magnet — did he swallow two? I said, no, just one. And they said, oh, then it's totally fine, it'll pass. No problem. If your child ever swallows two magnets, be careful, because the two magnets can pin the intestines and stuff. So I talked to him: Tyler, you're sure it's just one? He's like, yeah, dad, I swallowed one. We talked through it. Then I sat with him and said, hey, Tyler, I've made mistakes too. And he's like, oh, yeah, dad? I'm like, yeah. He's like, well, tell me your mistakes. I'm like, all right, if I'm going to be parenting, I've got to be up front. So I talked to him and told him about something silly I did when I was little. It started to become his favorite thing — at night, he'd be like, dad, tell me more of your mistakes.

Hosts: I love that. It's seeing that their parents are human — oh, they're like me.

Jario: Lena told me I'm not allowed to tell them about my high school mistakes yet.

Hosts: Good call, Lena.

Jario: But I think it's important to say, hey, I've made mistakes, I apologize, I work on it. I was trying to model that for my kids, because ultimately as a parent, my hope is to have children that are mature, that are able to take responsibility for their own life, that are able to empathize with others, care for others. I want to equip my children. I don't want to just tell them, no, don't do this because I said so. I want to talk it through with them. I look at that in my faith community as well. It's not like we just say, hey, don't get in that relationship, it's bad for you. It's, let's talk about what's going on — is this a healthy relationship you're in, and why is it healthy, why is it unhealthy? Let's talk about that instead of just condemning actions that people make. Hey, I notice you've been drinking a lot recently. I've got friends and they drink sometimes, and some people drink too much, or some people do behaviors that are destructive to them. There's a point of talking to people and just saying, hey, do you think this is healthy for you? Do you think this is helping you in your goals in life and what you're trying to achieve in life?

Jario: It's not necessarily condemning actions that people take, but looking at, how can I have the best life I can have? How can I make steps towards that? If there are things that are hurting me, I need to be able to talk about that. If there are things that are helping me, let's talk about that as well. A lot of it is — we're not a church trying to find out who's got the most sin. We all fall short in different areas. We're a place trying to help people live the healthiest life. How to have the best marriage you can have with where you're at today. Maybe I've made mistakes, maybe I've had a relationship before and I feel guilty that it didn't work out. Okay, that happened, and that was part of my growth period. Although it's painful that it happened, let's just move forward and see how we can take healthier steps next time around. We're always looking at how to move towards a better life. We can't fix everything from our past — it's there, and sometimes it's shaped who we are. My history has given me a lot of empathy for people that struggle with addictions and with different lifestyles and challenges of who they want to be and who they are. I can hear that and I can help people because of that situation.

Hosts: I often wonder that too. I feel like sometimes going through the most painful experiences actually gives you an ability to really embrace people more deeply. Because of that shared suffering, you can truly be empathetic in a way you might not be able to without having had that experience. Sometimes I find it's such a gift to just hold someone's hand and say, me too. So, Jario, do you find that's your role as a pastor — holding people's hand, listening to where they're at, and encouraging them that they can move forward?

Jario: Yeah, that's definitely a big part of our ministry down here. I want to understand where people are. I like to hear their stories. I want them to be able to share them. A big part is coaxing out the value in people — helping them sit through all the things in their life and find out what's the dream on their heart. What's valuable, what's important that they have to share with this world, and helping them realize it. My wife and I are dreamers, and I always like to hear people's stories. They go, well, I always wanted to be an artist, but I know I can't make money. And I'm like, so tell me more about being an artist. How do you want to pursue that? How can we start moving towards that? One of our most exciting things is finding the thing that makes someone's eyes light up and saying, let's lean into that, let's figure that out, let's see what that looks like — because I know God put that spark in them for a reason. Maybe it looks different in their expression than what they thought. Maybe the artistic side doesn't mean they're out in Paris painting; maybe it's having an eye for the way rooms are set up, or maybe they can use that gift to add value to people's lives. How do you add value? What is beautiful about you?

Jario: A big part is helping people believe that the ideal is for everybody, that God's hope is for each one of us. I live in this world and I think, we're one family under God, these are children of God. I stand in front of my congregation sometimes and I'm like, wow, these people represent God's heart. Each one of them has this beautiful expression, and some of it's different, but it's all these unique expressions. I want them to see what I see, I want them to feel that. I was recently asked the question, describe your community. And I remember just standing there and coming to tears, thinking how beautiful it's been to see people on a journey, to see them go through struggles and challenges, but also see them victorious, see them open up in ways they weren't able to before, and start to deal with the things that were holding them back from living out their true value. Pulling that out from people and helping them understand they can be better, they can be more, they can have more in life, they can find joy in life even though it's been challenging, even though they've had setbacks — you can make it forward.

Jario: I want people to also feel like there's a community that loves them and supports them around that. That's something we often talk about in our community — you've got uncles and aunts that have been through that before, you've got little brothers that are looking up to you. How can we work together to support each other? How can you talk to one another in a way that really lifts you up and encourages you? I've been so proud of being in the community. I always feel supported, and people will be like, after the fact, Jario, you were telling us about this and I thought it was great, but I've got to tell you, I didn't think it was going to work, but I supported you and said, let's do this, let's get the idea. I love being a creator in life. Isn't that what we're put on earth for? God is a creator, we're his children, we're supposed to create something. And that involves messiness — getting in the mud and pulling out the clay and starting to mold that. It looks all funky for a little while, and what's in your mind is not what's being expressed. You keep working at it, and you do it together as a community, we do it as a family. More and more, I see in my family and my community this beautiful thing that we're creating, and it makes me so happy, so proud, so filled with joy to see the creative process — even the process itself as being a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Jario: But also knowing where we're going. We're all coming back to God, we're all on that path. Sometimes we're taking detours, and sometimes we straight up have to turn around because we've just been going in the opposite direction. But we're all on this journey, and we just want to support each other to get back to that intimate relationship with God. At the end of the day, there's a kingdom of heaven that I want to be in. But it's not the kingdom of heaven without you. It's not the kingdom of heaven without my brother. It's not the kingdom of heaven without my kids. Even though that means I slow down my process, I'm going to do that, because I think it's so important — the people that we carry in life and the people that we love in life.

Hosts: I love that. That's amazing. My parents are part of Jario's community, so I've been there over the years and spent summers there, and I really appreciate the ministry that you and Lena are doing down there. I can see the growth and the joy in that community, and I think it comes from that attitude that you two share of seeing everyone uniquely and embracing everyone. There's a freedom in your community. So, Jario, after pastoring for how many years now?

Jario: Eleven years.

Hosts: Eleven years and three kids — you just had your third baby recently. What does faith and spirituality look like for you now, where you're at, and what keeps you inspired? What keeps you connected to God?

Jario: Well, first off, as a pastor, I show up to church every Sunday. Kind of expected to. But it is true — being at church every Sunday, and this is how I grew up too, even if it wasn't our church, I was going to a church every Sunday. It's such an important thing that anchors us in life, because life is busy, there are a million demands on our time, our focus, our energy. To focus on my goals, my heart, my emotional development — what are the dreams I've created with God? — and to be able to go back to that week after week is so very important. It's such a treasure for me to take time to listen to music, to pray, to just stop everything for an hour, and focus on my relationship with God, my relationships with other people. How am I doing? How do I feel right now? What are the burdens on my heart? Being able to process that every week is so integral to my life.

Jario: Family is huge, and that also inspires me, because I see, how can I be a better father? I'm constantly trying to challenge myself on that. I'm not fully satisfied with what I'm teaching my kids. I could address this with them, but how do I do that? I don't want to be over-heavy-handed on them, I don't want to be pushing them too much, but I do want to introduce them to concepts and discuss them and help them digest and process them. I'm constantly looking, how can I be a better father? That also means I'm challenging myself, because I know so clearly that the habits my kids pick up are from me, or from my wife — they're looking to us. If they're going through a difficult emotional expression at the moment, they look to mom and dad and say, oh, I'm allowed to yell and scream when I'm mad, because mom and dad do that. So I look back and go, why is she getting upset like that? Oh, maybe I didn't process something properly last time. I've got to address myself and become a better person, because I want to set a better example for them of how I should properly deal with my emotions. By being a parent, I'm constantly pushing myself to be a better person myself.

Jario: In the expression of Unification teaching, especially the Divine Principle textbook, I see this new way of dealing with relationships, with life, with pursuing goals and purpose and value, that could really change so many lives. Honestly, not in a religious sense — not in a, hey, how many people can I get in my church. I'm happy to have more people at my church, but I'm just as happy if someone gets transformed by my message and then goes to the Baptist church down the road every Sunday. They're in a healthy relationship with God — I'm super happy for that. What I'm talking about is more like looking at the wholeness of a family and what these relationships, the dynamics of husband and wife — we teach this equality in the marriage, but these different characteristics that both possess. It causes this energy that I'm always seeking to understand her more. There's always something more to grow in because of our opposite characteristics in some ways. But we're also united on God — we have the same focus and hope for our marriage. We're pursuing that, and what model that leads for my kids, that my kids see this love I have for my wife, the love she has for me, the way that we respect God, and it passes on to them and they receive it. This is in the Divine Principle of four-position foundation. It's such a simple thing in some ways, but I think a lot of relationships could benefit so much from understanding this concept.

Jario: Sometimes if I'm giving to someone and they don't respond in the way I anticipated, instead of being mad at them or cutting off the relationship, I can say, hey, maybe I didn't give them what they needed. This subject and object give-and-take relationship gives me a framework to start looking at my actions, my interactions with other people, and how I can do better. I look at all these things and I think this concept for the world would be so healing — the concept that we're one family under God excites me so much, because I see the division all around us, in political ideologies. I'm always like, man, both those people that are passionate about their politics really love this country and want it to be better. They have a different approach to it, but I really genuinely believe they both want it to be better. How can we create communication? How can we create relationship for them?

Jario: I look at different races. Growing up in this faith community, those were just my aunts and uncles, my brothers and sisters. It was weird for me to later learn, oh, we're supposed to be different. I didn't feel that growing up, and I want other people, I want my kids to feel that — to go around the world and just feel at home wherever they are, because we are one family. I'm excited to express that and help people understand these different cultures, not as challenges to who they are, but as an opportunity to explore the abundance and variety of life. That person from Africa has a different way of looking at things, and it's neat and it's interesting, and I don't need to accept all of it, but I can appreciate the beauty of it. I love this concept and sharing it with the world and helping break down these barriers, helping people see each other and the value in them and how beautiful other people are, and how much they can add to their life by opening themselves up to that interaction, that communication.

Jario: My faith — I feel like expressing these ideas into this world, helping relationships, helping parents be better parents, helping couples be better couples, helping kids really own their value and not struggle through junior high and high school trying to fit in because they feel they're not good enough — speaking from experience there. You can have friends, but you don't have to be molded after them. You're such a special person. To my kids I'm like, man, you've got so much going for you, you're so — dive into that, grow in that, develop that. That excites me. I'm excited to see the potential of bringing out human value, bringing out this appreciation of who people are as children of God, and the unique offerings that so many people have. Just being a platform to call that out to this world and to help other people realize it. It's the same message I'd want my kids to receive. I want them to see that, I want them to see there's a process for it, they're going to be challenged, they're going to fall short sometimes, but that value is still in them and that potential is in them, and we can work on it and move towards it together.

Hosts: Well, Jario, if people are hearing this and feeling inspired to check out your sermons, where can they go?

Jario: On Facebook, we go live every Sunday — Gather Family Church. Also gatherfamilychurch.com. We'd like to really invest in those things. Some other things we've developed to really help people — my wife and I have this other website, pastorsjandl.com. Pastors J and L has Sunday school curriculum for kids. We shoot videos for kids. I love working with adults, but I also love working with kids, so we shoot little Sunday school videos for them. We've got videos for adults as well, to understand the Divine Principle. We have some introductory things there, if you're interested in that — really, I can see it through relationships and how it works in your life. We've also been blessed to work with a program called schooloflove.org. This allows families to really set up conversations about the purity of their children, and not purity education the way that it was maybe in the 90s, but more in a positive view on sexuality — that sex is a good thing in the right time, and how to help children create healthy relationships. They can have friends, they can develop relationships, having crushes, having feelings, is not a bad thing, but how to process that and develop it so we can have a healthy interaction in junior high and high school. We've got that program, and that's been really great to help parents. We'd like to put stuff out there for this world and make it a little better.

Hosts: That's great. Thank you so much, Jario. We encourage everybody to check it out. I know that your Sunday school curriculum is really exciting and fun. Thank you for what you're putting out in the world, Jario. I think we could use more positive growth-mindset examples.